IRC logs of #boinc for Tuesday, 2008-07-01

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03:59 <CoderForLife> &wx 45140

03:59 <Romulus> CoderForLife: Temperature: 57.9F / 14.4C | Humidity: 86% | Pressure: 29.63in / 1003.3hPa (Steady) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: West | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Today - Mostly sunny. Highs in the lower 80s. West winds 5 to 10 mph.; Tonight - Clear. Lows in the upper 50s. South winds around 5 mph.; Wednesday - Mostly sunny. Highs in the upper 80s. Southwest winds 10 to 15 mph.;

04:16 <efc> moo

04:24 <CoderForLife> moo

04:32 <fishsponge__> hey people - i merged my hosts across all of the projects last week, but my boincstats account manager (BAM) still hasn't updated accordingly - it still sees my rebuilt machine as a new host...

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05:00 <efc> boincstats has boinced my stats for a while now

05:06 <efc> &weather 31088

05:06 <Romulus> efc: Temperature: 63F / 17C | Humidity: 97% | Pressure: 30.02in / 1017hPa (Rising) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: North | Wind Speed: 0mph / 0km/h ; Today - Mostly sunny. Highs around 90. Northwest winds 5 to 10 mph.; Tonight - Mostly clear. Lows in the lower 60s. North winds up to 10 mph.; Wednesday - Sunny. Highs in the lower 90s. Southeast winds up to 10 mph.; Fire Weather Warning for Houston (1 more message)

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05:31 <CoderForLife> off to w@#%

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06:14 <fishsponge__> can anyone help? i merged my hosts across all of the projects last week, but my boincstats account manager (BAM) still hasn't updated accordingly - it still sees my rebuilt machine as a new host...

06:31 <hawmps> blah

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09:13 <PovAdct_w> logs <3

09:13 <PovAdct_w> fishsponge__: BAM is independent of all that

09:13 <PovAdct_w> *delete* the old hosts on BAM

09:14 <PovAdct_w> BAM has no idea of your hosts according to the projects

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09:32 <fishsponge__> PovAdct_w: that's what i thought, but everyone told me that BAM would automatically update once i'd fixed all of the projects...

09:32 <fishsponge__> besides, i don't want to delete my old hosts, i want to merge them - my machine is still the same machine, with the same hostname - it's just has it's operating system re-installed

09:34 <PovAdct_w> there isn't any data to merge in BAM

09:35 <PovAdct_w> I think you're greatly confusing BAM and stats

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09:39 <fishsponge__> well, on BAM, i can see two hosts - my machine before the rebuild, and my machine after the rebuild. Each has it's own stats

09:39 <fishsponge__> i want to tell BAM that they are the same machine!

09:40 <PovAdct_w> no, stats are completely independent from BAM

09:40 <fishsponge__> ok, sorry - i should be saying BoincStats

09:40 * fishsponge__ tries not to look too stupid... lol

09:40 <PovAdct_w> do you use 'fishsponge' as username on BOINC?

09:40 <fishsponge__> yeah

09:41 <fishsponge__> well on boincstats i do - BOINC itself uses an email address, of course

09:41 <PovAdct_w> to login, yeah; but there's also a name that's used just to display

09:42 <PovAdct_w>

09:42 <Romulus> <> (at

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09:47 <PovAdct_w> &ping

09:47 <Romulus> pong

09:47 <PovAdct_w> ok this web IRC broke

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09:49 <PovAdct_w> Didactylos: I can't send messages on PM

09:49 <PovAdct_w> I press Enter and the input box clears but my message doesn't appear in the log

09:50 <Didactylos> Okay. Later, then.

09:50 <PovAdct_w> but I did see your messages

09:51 <PovAdct_w> I assigned wxString to empty string explicitly just because I saw it being done that way elsewhere

09:51 <Didactylos> Oh, I got that. No worries.

09:51 <Didactylos> I was just contemplating cleaning them all up.

09:51 <Didactylos> Simpler code is easier to maintain, I believe.

09:52 <PovAdct_w> oh for sure

09:52 <Didactylos> Now I need to test Charlies other change.

09:53 <Didactylos> It's split over several commits. Confused me, it did :-)

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10:14 <jackygrahamez> hi

10:15 <jackygrahamez> So David thinks I got a .NET issue compiling the boinc wrapper and redistributing it, any ideas?

10:16 <Didactylos> What sort of issue?

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10:20 <jackygrahamez> He said I should look at this post

10:20 <Romulus> <> (at

10:21 <jackygrahamez> So I was working on this new wrapper with him two weeks ago

10:21 <jackygrahamez> so we could call the files under the projects directory

10:21 <jackygrahamez> It worked on my own computers which have .Net 3.5

10:22 <jackygrahamez> It fails on the second task for all the people I distribute the application to

10:22 <jackygrahamez> So I figure these binaries need to be more universal

10:22 <jackygrahamez> just compiling on Windows for now

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10:46 <PovAdct_w> jackygrahamez: why would it have anything to do with .NET?

10:46 <PovAdct_w> is your wrapper written in C#?

10:47 <jackygrahamez> no

10:47 <PovAdct_w> that's one thing I hate of .NET, you get visual studio and you can get confused on whether you're compiling a native app or a .NET app

10:48 <jackygrahamez> Just opening the boinc_samples in VS c++ 2008 and trying to follow the instructions on the wiki

10:48 <jackygrahamez> the samples I take it should be native

10:48 <PovAdct_w> everything should be

10:49 <PovAdct_w> I seem to have lost contact with my home computer

10:49 <PovAdct_w> replies ping but nothing else

10:50 <PovAdct_w> (and ping is replied by my router anyway)

10:50 <PovAdct_w> &any povaddict

10:50 <Romulus> PovAdct_w: povaddict was last seen in #boinc 12 minutes and 53 seconds ago: *** PovAddict has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))

10:50 <jackygrahamez> &wx 20011

10:50 <Romulus> jackygrahamez: Temperature: 76.5F / 24.7C | Humidity: 63% | Pressure: 29.83in / 1010.0hPa (Steady) | Conditions: Scattered Clouds | Wind Direction: SSW | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Today - Partly sunny. Scattered showers this afternoon. Highs near 80. Northwest winds 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 30 percent.; Tonight - Mostly cloudy. Isolated showers in the evening. Lows in the mid 60s. Northwest winds 5 (1 more message)

10:52 <jackygrahamez> Do I need to make sure C++/CLI is enabled?

10:52 <PovAdct_w> no, make sure it's *disabled*

10:52 <jackygrahamez> ok

10:52 <PovAdct_w> CLI = Common Language Infrastructure = .NET

10:53 <jackygrahamez> I don't suppose I can backstep to VS 2005

10:56 <jackygrahamez> I looked in the wrapper properties and it says Framework and References Targeted Framework .NET Framework 2.0

10:57 <PovAdct_w> I never used VS myself

10:57 <jackygrahamez> what do you use?

10:57 <jackygrahamez> maybe I should switch

10:57 <PovAdct_w> a text editor and GNU C Compiler

10:58 <jackygrahamez> sounds good with me, do you have to write a lot of command line to compile though?

10:59 <PovAdct_w> well, once the build system is set up, you just type 'make' :)

10:59 <jackygrahamez> You don't need to run configure?

11:00 <PovAdct_w> you do, if you write a configure script

11:00 <PovAdct_w> (and anyway, you only run it once, then it's just 'make' for each time you modify the code and want to re-compile it)

11:03 <jackygrahamez> ah I just tried to make it in cygwin, no luck

11:03 <PovAdct_w> remember you need to compile the BOINC API too

11:04 <jackygrahamez> I've been there done that and never sucessfully compiled boinc API in cygwin

11:04 <jackygrahamez> but I do have it compiled in VSC++ 2008

11:05 <PovAdct_w> they aren't compatible afaik

11:05 <jackygrahamez> figures

11:05 <PovAdct_w> I *think* libraries built with MSVC can be used in MinGW and vice versa, but consider Cygwin a different platform

11:06 <PovAdct_w> ugh, what's up with my home comp

11:07 <PovAdct_w> "No route to host"

11:08 <PovAdct_w> btw, you can also install mingw on a Linux machine

11:08 <PovAdct_w> and compile Windows apps from it

11:09 <jackygrahamez> sweet

11:10 <Didactylos> jackygrahamez: I think 2005 supports 2.0 out of the box.

11:10 <PovAdct_w> .NET 2.0?

11:10 <Didactylos> Yes

11:11 <PovAdct_w> the thing is... how to make it *not* use *any* .NET

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11:12 <Didactylos> This is a .NET wrapper, yes? Then it's going to need CLI support, surely?

11:12 <PovAdct_w> it's the official native wrapper trying to wrap a native application

11:12 <PovAdct_w> and the stupid VS says it's building it targeted at .NET

11:12 <Didactylos> jackygrahamez's problem is a .NET 3.5 dependancy, I think.

11:12 <jackygrahamez> I'm just trying to do a vanila compile

11:12 <Didactylos> Oh. No .NET at all?

11:13 <jackygrahamez> correct

11:13 <PovAdct_w> I see no .NET stuff in boinc_samples :)

11:14 <Didactylos> jackygrahamez: what error are you actually getting?

11:14 <jackygrahamez> The error I have is not executing on other people's machines, otherwise it works fine for me

11:15 <jackygrahamez> I shared the errors with David A and he thinks its just the .NET issue

11:15 <Didactylos> Well, have you checked the MSVC dependancies?

11:15 <PovAdct_w> link to one of the failed WUs

11:15 <Didactylos> 2008 uses a version not commonly available.

11:21 <jackygrahamez> I'm looking under linker

11:21 <jackygrahamez> for wrapper app

11:21 <jackygrahamez> it says link library dependencies

11:21 <jackygrahamez> yes

11:22 <jackygrahamez> Also looking under C/C++

11:23 <jackygrahamez> Not sure what I'm looking for

11:23 <Didactylos> Use depends to check what DLLs it needs.

11:24 <Didactylos> Look for MSVCRT80

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11:31 <jackygrahamez> what is depends? Does that come with VS

11:31 <jackygrahamez> ?

11:34 <PovAdct_w> it should

11:35 <PovAdct_w> Dependency Walker

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13:02 <jackygrahamez> Just got back from lunch, I downloaded dependency walker seperately

13:04 <Didactylos> It's easier if you run it on the computer where the program won't run - then it flags the missing dependency for you.

13:05 <Didactylos> I could check it for you, if you want?

13:08 <jackygrahamez> cool how can I send it?

13:08 <jackygrahamez> I know

13:08 <jackygrahamez> hold

13:09 <jackygrahamez>

13:09 <Romulus> <> (at

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13:17 <Didactylos> Well, it runs on my machine.

13:17 <Didactylos> Only thing that may be a problem is MSVCP60.dll, but that should be available on most machines.

13:21 <jackygrahamez> well David could be wrong...:-)

13:21 <jackygrahamez> another thing for me to test, see if this wrapper works with another application

13:22 <jackygrahamez> It could be related to the way we are trying to call the project subdirectories using this variable

13:22 <jackygrahamez> its a new way of running apps

13:23 <jackygrahamez> I proposed the idea

13:23 <jackygrahamez> so far it only works on my computer

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13:24 <jackygrahamez> I hope I get it working soon

13:27 <Tank_Master> o.O?

13:28 <Tank_Master> huh, its illegal in Texas for a computer repair shop to do any sort of analysis of a customer's computer without obtaining a private investigator's license

13:29 <Tank_Master> sounds like a way for the gov to make $$

13:29 <PovAdct_w> what the

13:29 <jackygrahamez> hmm

13:29 <Tank_Master>

13:29 <Romulus> <> (at

13:29 <jackygrahamez> Texas certified Geek

13:29 <Tank_Master> :P

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13:58 <darev> hi, leuts

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14:00 <paddyez> Stimmung!

14:00 <jackygrahamez> &wx 20001

14:00 <Romulus> jackygrahamez: Temperature: 82.0F / 27.8C | Humidity: 50% | Pressure: 29.83in / 1010.0hPa (Falling) | Conditions: Mostly Cloudy | Wind Direction: SSW | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; This Afternoon - Partly sunny with scattered showers and isolated thunderstorms. Highs in the lower 80s. Northwest winds 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 30 percent.; Tonight - Mostly cloudy. Isolated showers in the evening. Lows in (1 more message)

14:12 <jackygrahamez> &more

14:12 <Romulus> jackygrahamez: the mid 60s. Northwest winds 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 20 percent.; Wednesday - Mostly sunny. Highs in the upper 80s. West winds 5 to 10 mph.;

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15:52 <xcamel> re-hi

15:52 <xcamel> spork >>

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16:33 <PovAddict> looks like I had a power failure over here

16:36 <Tank_Master> looks like Im having a router failer

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16:51 <PovAddict> Didactylos: did you report that?

16:51 <Romulus> Title: Changeset 15525 - BOINC - Trac (at

16:51 <Didactylos> No.

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16:52 <PovAddict> because it looks like something I fixed in synec. :)

16:52 <Didactylos> Identical.

16:52 <Didactylos> Which is why in legal disputes over copyright, code can often only be written one way.

16:53 <PovAddict> does Charlie know of the fork?

16:53 <Didactylos> This is why I like UK patent rules.

16:53 <Didactylos> I don't know. I think if he did, he would have merged some of the other fixes.

16:54 <PovAddict> that's something I read about software forking, and thought wouldn't really happen with BOINC:

16:54 <PovAddict> somebody forks the Linux kernel

16:54 <PovAddict> adds some features, fixes some stuff

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16:55 <PovAddict> Linus Torvalds says "thank you", merges his changes, and the fork now provides nothing the official kernel doesn't provide, and in addition it's already outdated

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16:55 <PovAddict> I don't think that would happen with BOINC

16:55 <Didactylos> I'm (sadly) fairly sure BOINC won't do that. I wish they would, though.

16:56 <PovAddict> if changes don't get merged when we send them to the devs directly, low chance the devs will actively look for them in a fork to merge them back

16:56 <Didactylos> Good coders should be humble enough to recognise good code in other, and weaknesses in their own code.

16:57 <PovAddict> &title

16:57 <Romulus> PovAddict: Error: The command "title" is available in the Format and Web plugins.  Please specify the plugin whose command you wish to call by using its name as a command before "title".

16:57 <Didactylos> Can you try resizing the manager window, and tell me if the status bar "Connected" field flickers?

16:57 <PovAddict> ...oops, I have Romulus on ignore, so I wouldn't see what he replied :P

16:58 <PovAddict> &title

16:58 <Romulus> PovAddict: Error: The command "title" is available in the Format and Web plugins.  Please specify the plugin whose command you wish to call by using its name as a command before "title".

16:58 <PovAddict> &web title

16:58 <Romulus> PovAddict: Welcome page

16:58 <PovAddict> good, network working

16:58 <PovAddict> Didactylos: I'd have to reconfigure my window manager first

16:58 <PovAddict> when I resize a window, it shows a semitransparent outline, and only actually resizes contents when I release

16:58 <Didactylos> Doesn't do realtime sizing?

16:59 <PovAddict> due to deficiencies in X and the way it handles composited windows... realtime resizing is slow enough to be annoying

17:00 <PovAddict> also, realtime resizing makes it easier to notice how everything is super-fast tear-free except redrawing the window contents

17:01 <PovAddict> (most widget toolkits aren't hardware accelerated, maybe not even double buffered)

17:01 <PovAddict> ok, configured "normal" window resizing

17:02 <PovAddict> nothing flickers, but sometimes the "Connected to" text moves before the statusbar borders redraw, so the border covers the text briefly

17:02 * PovAddict changes to a software-rendered window manager

17:03 <PovAddict> nope, no flicker; but slow redrawing for sure

17:04 <PovAddict> augh! when I move a window I can see the windows behind redrawing themselves when exposed >_<

17:05 * PovAddict goes back to GPU-rendered goodness

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17:17 <Tank_Master> haha

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17:41 <xcamel> &wx 12074

17:42 <Romulus> xcamel: Temperature: 74.0F / 23.3C | Humidity: 59% | Pressure: 29.91in / 1012.8hPa (Rising) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: SSE | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Tonight - Partly cloudy. Scattered thunderstorms this evening. Lows in the upper 50s. West winds up to 5 mph this evening becoming light. Chance of precipitation 40 percent.; Wednesday - Partly sunny. Highs in the lower 80s. Southwest winds up (1 more message)

17:42 <xcamel> &more

17:42 <Romulus> xcamel: to 10 mph.; Wednesday Night - Mostly clear. Lows in the lower 60s. South winds 5 to 10 mph.;

17:48 <PovAddict> Didactylos:

17:48 <Romulus> <> (at

17:48 <PovAddict> pwned?

17:50 <xcamel> likely

17:51 <Didactylos> Go Eric.

17:52 <Didactylos> How did he get commit access? :+)

17:55 <PovAddict> well, he's SETI@Home "Project Scientist"

17:56 <Didactylos> Ah yes.

17:56 <Didactylos> You want to merge it? I have a lot of uncommited changes here.

17:58 <PovAddict> changes to mgr stuff?

18:00 <Didactylos> Yes, they probably don't overlap.

18:04 <PovAddict> I see ugly stuff in the automake files

18:04 <PovAddict> the whatever_SOURCES variable should include the header files

18:04 <PovAddict> but it doesn't, it just has the .C files

18:04 <PovAddict> then they put "EXTRA_DIST=*.h"

18:05 <PovAddict> any wildcard in the build system is a bad idea (would be worse if they had put "*.C" as source list)

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18:11 <PovAddict> I just noticed that messy MFILE class could be replaced with a std::stringstream...

18:12 <Didactylos> Indeed.

18:12 <PovAddict> and MIOFILE could be any iostream depending on what's needed

18:12 <Didactylos> Upgrading from C to C++ is something that needs doing.

18:12 <PovAddict> (apparently main use is for sockets; that can be done by writing a socket-based streambuf)

18:12 <Didactylos> Not a trivial change, though.

18:13 <PovAddict> hmm have a look at lib/miofile.h; any idea why the <string> include isn't done on Windows?

18:14 <Didactylos> As Eric observed - it's messed up.

18:14 <Didactylos> I think the short answer is - it IS needed.

18:15 <PovAddict> remove the ifndef and see if it compiles; maybe there is some reason due to weird MSVC stuff (in which case there should be a comment about it!)

18:15 <Didactylos> Ran into similar problems with vectors in the manager code.

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18:23 <PovAddict> I modified two client files so that they don't need cpp.h at all

18:27 <Didactylos> Where's config.h?

18:28 <PovAddict> it's generated by ./configure

18:28 <PovAddict> <- that's mine

18:28 <Romulus> Title: general pastebin - Untitled - post number 1059980 (at

18:30 <PovAddict> many .h files declare classes that have std::vector members, but don't include <vector>

18:30 <PovAddict> that seems to be a guideline...

18:30 <PovAddict> "A .C file should have the minimum set of #includes to get that particular file to compile (e.g. the includes needed by foo.C should be in foo.C, not foo.h)." (from trac/wiki/CodingStyle)

18:31 <PovAddict> what's your opinion on that?

18:32 <PovAddict> I think if foo.C uses the Bar class from bar.h, and the Bar class has a vector member, foo.C author shouldn't have to include <vector> (particularly if he doesn't even know that member is there)

18:33 <PovAddict> and if a string member is added, suddenly all .C files using it stop compiling?

18:33 <Didactylos> You put it much better than I could.

18:34 <PovAddict> on my GUIRPC library, I could change the container used for TaskList without breaking existing code

18:35 <PovAddict> (well, at least if recompiled; binary compatibility probably ain't going to happen)

18:37 <PovAddict> ooh another evil

18:38 <PovAddict> 'using' declarations in header files

18:38 <PovAddict> moves 'vector' into the global namespace of *other* .C files, which may not like that...

18:39 <Didactylos> What's the point of the icon in the status bar?

18:39 <PovAddict> well, the icon does change in connected/disconnected states

18:40 <Didactylos> Really helpful. (Not)

18:40 <PovAddict> I was about to fix the includes in client_state.h, but I think that one will have to wait

18:40 <Didactylos> I'm strongly tempted to remove the icon.

18:41 <PovAddict> I don't have any strong opinion in either direction; so go ahead

18:41 * Rookie_69 wanders off to see which e-book is playing on the comp-box in the bedroom...

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18:41 <Didactylos> Well, I'm going to add at least one new field, so space is premium.

18:42 <Didactylos> Okay, it's gone. Easy enough to put it back later....

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18:44 <xcamel> re-back

18:49 <PovAddict> I think there are indeed files including too much

18:49 <PovAddict> I change obscure stuff like time_stats and it feels as if the whole client got recompiled

18:54 *** wdsmia_ is now known as wdsmia

18:55 <Didactylos> wxString doesn't generate unused variable warnings. Odd.

18:55 <PovAddict> like, if you have a useless wxString local var?

18:56 <Didactylos> Yes.

18:57 <PovAddict> that's how it works with any C++ class as far as I know

18:57 <Didactylos> Java spoils me.

18:57 <PovAddict> I've seen classes like "Mutex" that are locked on construction and unlocked on destruction

18:58 <PovAddict> so a function could just have "Mutex m;" and never actually "use" the m variable

18:58 <PovAddict> but it's not useless :)

18:58 <Didactylos> True. I'm familiar with that pattern.

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19:17 <CoderForLife> evening

19:17 <CoderForLife> &wx 45140

19:17 <Romulus> CoderForLife: Temperature: 79.5F / 26.4C | Humidity: 39% | Pressure: 30.18in / 1021.9hPa (Falling) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: SSW | Wind Speed: 0.4mph / 0.6km/h ; Tonight - Clear. Lows in the upper 50s. South winds around 5 mph.; Wednesday - Mostly sunny. Highs in the upper 80s. Southwest winds 10 to 15 mph with gusts up to 25 mph.; Wednesday Night - Partly cloudy in the evening...then mostly (1 more message)

19:18 <CoderForLife> &more

19:18 <Romulus> CoderForLife: cloudy with a chance of showers and thunderstorms after midnight. Lows in the mid 60s. Southwest winds 10 to 15 mph...becoming light south winds after midnight. Chance of rain 40 percent.;

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19:35 <xcamel> re-re-hi

19:35 <Tank_Master> re-re-wb

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19:43 <KathrynM> CoderForLife, xcamel Tank_Master ---  morning

19:43 <KathrynM> oh yes, Didactylos and PovAddict too

19:43 <Tank_Master> mornin KM

19:44 <PovAddict> o/

19:44 <Didactylos> Hi, KathrynM

19:44 * KathrynM yawns

19:44 <Didactylos> Just in time to say goodnight.

19:44 <KathrynM> it's hump day

19:44 <KathrynM> I'll take your night Didactylos  and you can go to w&@^ for me

19:45 <CoderForLife> hello KathrynM

19:45 <CoderForLife> hello xcamel Tank_Master PovAddict Didactylos

19:45 <Tank_Master> hoya CFL

19:45 <Tank_Master> hiya*

19:45 <CoderForLife> heya hiya hoya

19:46 <KathrynM> lol

19:46 <KathrynM> &wx ulsan

19:46 <Romulus> KathrynM: Temperature: 70°F / 21°C | Humidity: 94% | Pressure: 29.74in / 1007hPa | Conditions: Overcast | Wind Direction: SW | Wind Speed: 1mph / 2km/h | Updated: 7:16 AM KST; Overcast. High:75 F. / 24 C.; Chance of Rain. Low:64 F. / 18 C.; Chance of Rain. High:75 F. / 24 C.; Rain. Low:68 F. / 20 C.; Scattered Clouds. High:80 F. / 27 C.; Scattered Clouds. Low:68 F. / 20 C.;

19:46 <CoderForLife> M-i-c... k-e-y...

19:47 <KathrynM> m-o-u-s-e

19:47 <CoderForLife> I just remember, I saw all that as first run on our one family black and white TV, the one with all the tubes

19:55 *** efc has joined #boinc

19:55 <KathrynM> oink efc

19:57 <efc> hey

19:57 <efc> I looked up my good gaussian WU. There was indeed a star at that point.

19:57 <KathrynM> time to hit the shoer

19:57 <KathrynM> ugh... it's gonna be a long day

19:58 <KathrynM> I think I'll hit the shower.  Not sure what I shoer would do to me.

19:58 <efc> Melt?

19:59 <KathrynM> dunno.

19:59 <KathrynM> <---- disappears

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20:17 <efc> here's my guassian (middle of the screen, HD224724

20:17 <Romulus> <> (at

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20:34 <CoderForLife> efc hit a star

20:35 <efc> my insurance doesn't cover that if the star was moving

20:35 <Tank_Master> did the celeb deserve getting hit?

20:37 <CoderForLife> only if the star causes a fire, or explosion, or enables theives to enter your property

20:37 <Tank_Master> lol

20:38 <CoderForLife> oh wait - that's my landslide coverage

20:39 <CoderForLife> I'm getting a sub-carrier signal from HD224724

20:39 <CoderForLife> it says...

20:39 <CoderForLife> "The South Will Rise Again"

20:40 <CoderForLife> "Save S&H Green Stamps"

20:40 *** Tank_Master has quit IRC

20:40 <efc> is there an encoded dukes of hazzard rerun?

20:40 <CoderForLife> "Elvis Says Hi"

20:41 <CoderForLife> No, something about the Munich Olympic Games

20:42 <CoderForLife> brb  bio

20:47 <xcamel> re-re-re-hi-hi

20:48 <xcamel> you tuning in alien freqencies again?

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20:50 <xcamel> slick little yellow star...

20:51 <efc> 160 something parsecs

20:51 <efc> must be a little radio-noisy

20:52 <xcamel> there are a bunch of those...

20:53 <xcamel> and there is another theory... some stars can focus a great deal of noise from "behind" them...

20:53 <xcamel> especially otherwise unremarkable stars

20:53 <xcamel> similar to einstein lensing

20:53 <CoderForLife> the spaceship traveling in the tail?

20:54 <xcamel> intensly focused magnetic fields..

20:54 * CoderForLife puts on his aluminum foil hat

20:54 <efc> they'd have to have quite a gravity well to bend light much

20:54 * xcamel 's hat is beryllium foil

20:55 <xcamel> not light - radio noise

20:55 <xcamel> 3.2-4.8GHz

20:56 <efc> they might as well be the same thing from a gravity perspective

20:57 <efc> I've never seen anything outside of the free energy crowd that magnetic fields can bend any form of light etc

21:00 <xcamel> gravity bends light, time, and space

21:00 * CoderForLife sees time bend to 9pm

21:01 <CoderForLife> time to turn out the Coding lights

21:01 <CoderForLife> nytol

21:01 <Tank_Master> tc

21:01 * CoderForLife sees that he was never here

21:02 <CoderForLife> spacetime bubble

21:02 * CoderForLife jumps over to the adjoining brane

21:03 <efc> magnetic

21:03 <PovAddict>

21:03 <Romulus> <> (at

21:03 <xcamel> nice bit of "judicial jackass" there in georgia, E

21:03 <efc> ?

21:03 <xcamel>

21:03 <Romulus> <> (at

21:04 <xcamel> I guess the enviros really want you folks to freeze to death in the datk...

21:05 <efc> superior court, pretty low I think

21:05 <xcamel> you folks get no water, and no power.

21:05 <xcamel> pretty soon no food or gas either...

21:06 <efc> To appeal, or not to appeal

21:06 <efc> the problem with appeal is you set precedent. Precedent for no-more-power would be bad.

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21:07 <xcamel> based on bad science too.

21:09 <efc> we'll see if the north pole melts this year. Somebody was predicting that.

21:10 <xcamel> melted many times before - I have a picture of 3 subs parked exactly there in July 1987

21:12 <PovAddict> rejecting a coal-based plant?

21:12 <efc> WP: The sea ice at the North Pole is typically around two or three meters thick[30], though there is considerable variation and occasionally the movement of floes exposes clear water

21:12 <PovAddict> lemme guess: they reject a coal-based power plant even though you have power shortage, yet they don't care as much about cars?

21:12 <PovAddict> :)

21:13 <xcamel> see here:

21:13 <xcamel>

21:13 <Romulus> <> (at

21:13 <efc> I don't think the cars put out nearly as much CO2 as the coal plants

21:13 <PovAddict> efc: depends how many cars

21:13 <efc> even though they are probably less efficient uses for the same amount of C)2

21:13 <xcamel> CO2 isn't really a greenhouse gas

21:14 <PovAddict> Chile is in extremely serious trouble about car pollution

21:14 <xcamel> not when it's only .0017 of the atmosphere.

21:14 <PovAddict> there's days where the streets look like you're inside a cloud

21:14 <xcamel> and it's vital to plantlife

21:15 <xcamel> water vapor is the biggie... good luck with that one, seeing the surface is 4/5 water...

21:15 <PovAddict> every day they say which license plate numbers are forbidden from driving (ie. if they say "all cars with license plates ending in 1 and 3 can't go out" they'd in theory lower traffic to an 80%)

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21:17 <efc> global warming might not be it, but I think we're really hitting the breaking point in the next few years somewhere in the environment

21:18 <efc> and I don't mean that we can't survive, we will, just not very pleasantly

21:18 <Soul_keeper> yeah we're screwed

21:18 <efc> We can feed a billion people in the US, sure, they will just be miserable

21:19 <PovAddict> the most ridiculous thing I see is people saying "there is no global warming [insert long list of arguments/scientific facts here] so we shouldn't care *at all* about pollution"

21:19 <xcamel> GW and pollution are two entirely different topics.

21:19 <efc> The breeding is the worst thing, whatever problems you have, it scales them all up, overwhelming any conservation

21:19 <PovAddict> exactly...

21:20 <Soul_keeper> everyone has an agenda

21:20 <efc> They nag the public in Atlanta about conserving water while they build new houses as fast as they can. One new house = conservation for 20 old ones (my guess)

21:21 <PovAddict> "why make non-polluting cars, these scientific facts say there is no GW"

21:21 <efc> The primary goal seems to be to keep the illegals employed. How that became a national priority I have no idea.

21:21 <PovAddict> sometimes there's also the "you're wrong, I'm right, and I won't even bother listening to you" attitude from both sides of the argument...

21:22 <efc> yeah the political crap does not help at all. We are hosed if we can't make rational decisions.

21:22 <PovAddict> tell me about it...

21:23 <efc> Which means we're hosed :p

21:23 <PovAddict> our gov giving ridiculously-high taxes to agriculture, then stretching facts to blame the farmers for everything that's wrong in the country, in a way that already got childish

21:25 <xcamel> that is all about people, and nothing about the planet...

21:25 <PovAddict> that was in relation to "political crap" and "can't make rational decisions", not about the env. topic

21:26 <efc> Democracy has its drawbacks in those regard

21:26 <xcamel> politics is not capable of making "rational decisions"

21:26 <xcamel> people however, are.

21:28 <xcamel> the same idiots were howling about the coming ice age 30 years ago...

21:28 <xcamel> and the "population bomb" BS, and the DDT baloney...\

21:29 <efc> you can get a nice long argument out of any of those topics

21:29 <efc> They seem to be beyond the capability of science to answer at the level of the public

21:29 <PovAddict> yeah, let's change to a topic that doesn't cause so many arguments, like BOINC credits... oh wait

21:30 <xcamel> yeah... right.

21:30 <efc> Quit frying the globe with your quad core power sucking hummer of a CPU that gets too many credits for its optimized client and thins egg shells to boot

21:30 * efc tosses conversational hand grenade

21:31 <xcamel> most of you are too young to understand that it's all about control. nothing more, nothing less.

21:31 <PovAddict> efc: sounds like something Romulus would say

21:31 <efc> &markov global

21:31 <Romulus> No idea.

21:31 <PovAddict> &markov

21:31 <Romulus> markov is running amok, PovAddict

21:32 <xcamel> you fine folks bitched about it too much... I turned it off.

21:32 <xcamel> unless called directly - which is mostly pointless.

21:32 <efc> The triggered markov is fine, it was the random ones..

21:33 <PovAddict> markov chains get more interesting with controlled input data

21:33 <xcamel> um... no.

21:34 <PovAddict> as in, get lots of text related to a specific topic and make chains from that

21:34 <xcamel> still pointless

21:34 <efc> Specific topic is whats optimized credit is a croc of global warming, PovAddict

21:35 <Soul_keeper> would running a system that uses a flash drive as it's main drive, would this slow down boinc noticeably ?

21:35 <Soul_keeper> usb flash drive

21:35 <PovAddict> Soul_keeper: I don't think so, but it will wear out the flash memory

21:35 <efc> Doubt it. The writes should(?) be buffered in ram, will seem fast to the app, if they are small.

21:35 <Soul_keeper> that's ok they are like 30 bucks

21:36 <efc> Linux could run off a read only filesystem I'd think

21:36 <PovAddict> efc: BOINC forces write buffer flush in many cases

21:36 <efc> At the OS level? or filesystem API level? (cout.flush())

21:36 <PovAddict> fflush(fp) yeah

21:37 <efc> Don't think the OS has to respect that though it might be wise to

21:38 <Soul_keeper>    just wondering, because if i was to buy this no point in forking out dough for a hard drive

21:38 <Romulus> <> (at

21:39 <efc> Net-booting might be an option. Often mentioned, seldom tried :)

21:40 <Soul_keeper> yeah i like traditional type installs

21:40 <efc> did they ever come out with some boards you can actually buy that don't use a Hummer H1 Polar-bear frying eggshell-thinning otter-oiling Chernobyl-glowing chipset?

21:41 <efc> for the atom

21:41 <Soul_keeper> not yet

21:42 <Soul_keeper> it does have HT, and i was thinking, it would be one of the cheapest ways to get "run time"

21:42 <Soul_keeper> via is now integrating their psu's onto the motherboards

21:42 * efc hands Soul_keeper a baby polar bear to personally execute

21:42 <Soul_keeper> or a daughter board

21:43 <efc> I recommend ranch dressing and red wine with the polar veal

21:43 <Soul_keeper> yeah we are gonna waste them fools

21:43 <efc> dad went to some convention once that a bunch of govt EPA type guys were at

21:43 <efc> somebody brought a (fake) can of "Spotted Owl Soup"

21:44 <efc> the govt dudes were extremely unhappy with that

21:44 <Soul_keeper> so yeah, amd's newest chip puts off 20% more heat, costs 10% more, than a comparable c2q

21:44 <Soul_keeper> lol

21:45 <xcamel> indeed

21:46 <Soul_keeper> i bet by the time amd gets a good 45nm quad out, intel will have a 32nm octacore out

21:46 <efc> those things would make a nice little NAT/router/all my always-on task boxes

21:47 <Soul_keeper> yeah

21:48 <efc> Dunno how much running boinc on it 24/7 would use over idle but probably not more than the 4 watts the CPU takes

21:49 <Soul_keeper> yeah not much

21:49 <efc> I could probably run one of those as a desktop 99% of the time and fire up the H1 for a game or two. only have a few serious tasks that need CPU (including uh boinc)

21:49 <Soul_keeper> are their projects that are only concerned with run time ?

21:51 <efc> I can't see why there would be..

21:51 <PovAddict> people would attach their 33MHz to them

21:51 <Soul_keeper> yeah

21:51 <Soul_keeper> figures

21:52 <efc> If there was some task that needed you to be online to process stuff with very short turnaround I could see it

21:53 <Soul_keeper> yeah or a hard drive limited project

21:53 <efc> Even then you'd want to weight it by platform speed

21:53 <efc> like say if s@h wanted to be able to gather some data and have it analyzed in 5 minutes they could award credit for being on standby

21:54 <efc> I think they actually do some stuff like that but use their own stuff for those quick turnarounds

21:54 <Soul_keeper> yeah they'd probably just do that kinda stuff on their local workstations/servers

21:54 <efc> Would be an interesting problem though

21:55 <efc> there are problems like (finding gamma ray bursts) that but seti isn't one of them

21:56 <Soul_keeper> the atom would only be good for winning bragging rights in a run time race

21:56 <Soul_keeper> because it has HT

21:57 <efc> How did the $/flop work out? (and i'd guess you'd want to figure out power cost in that too)

21:57 <Soul_keeper> it loses

21:57 <Soul_keeper> quad cores smoke it at $/flop

21:58 <Soul_keeper> i think i figured you'd need like 10 of them to match the output of a single budget quad setup

22:00 <efc> this looks like a task for Excell

22:02 <efc> How much can you put together a barebones cruncher Atom and Quad for?

22:02 <Soul_keeper> hard drives and psu's would be the most expensive part in a mass atom build

22:03 <Soul_keeper> probably 150-200 for an atom build

22:03 <efc> i'm assuming you'd use flash or net boot for both of them

22:04 <efc> The Barest of the Bare, Bare It All

22:04 <Soul_keeper> a quad c2d could be put together for about 400 or less

22:05 <Soul_keeper> well, i'm figure 20 or 30 dollar used/old hard drives, and 2 sticks of 256MB mem per system for like 20 bucks

22:05 <Soul_keeper> maybe 30 for a cheapo psu

22:05 <efc> just trying to establish initial cost, operating cost, and RAC for each

22:05 <Soul_keeper> no need for cases

22:06 <Soul_keeper> could just put them on shelves

22:06 <efc> That guy's Atom RAC is 328.11 atm, i'll use that

22:06 <Soul_keeper> ok

22:07 <efc> good power figures will be hard. need power at the outlet. Guestimate 25 for the atom?

22:08 <Soul_keeper> i havn't looked too much into it i'd have to google

22:08 <Tank_Master> 328RAC for a singlecore atom is about right

22:08 <efc>

22:08 <Romulus> <> (at

22:08 <Tank_Master> someone on my team has one

22:08 <Soul_keeper> i'd think the chipset alone would use 25 watts

22:08 <efc> 4 for the cpu, 12ish for chipset, some slop for ram and PSU etc. HD would add a notch more

22:09 <Soul_keeper> because the replacement chipset that intel has planned will use 15 watts

22:09 <efc> ok, make it 40

22:10 <Tank_Master> Id say you can expect aroun 650-700RAC from the dual core atoms coming out

22:10 <Soul_keeper> 945G has a TDP of 22.2w

22:10 <Soul_keeper>

22:10 <Romulus> Title: Atom-based system power consumption tested - The Tech Report (at

22:11 <Soul_keeper> VR-Zone registered about 39W on its power meter. Assuming 80% efficiency for the power supply, VR-Zone says that works out to only 32W of power draw at full load for the entire system

22:11 <Tank_Master> nice

22:11 <Tank_Master> so it would be feasable to stack these and get a decent RAC that way

22:12 <efc> then, sample RAC and power for a barebones quad core2?

22:12 <Soul_keeper> i measured mine at 60watts idle just over 100 under full load

22:13 <Soul_keeper> i'd put the RAC at 1500-2000

22:14 <Soul_keeper> that's actually a 65nm chip tho, and overclocked to 3GHz from 1.8 ...

22:14 <Tank_Master> lol

22:15 <Tank_Master> nice o/c

22:18 <efc> 100, pretty darn good

22:18 <efc> not sure if I'd want to figure a drastic o/c or not

22:19 <Soul_keeper> May 20 23:54:02 <Soul_keeper>c2d @3GHZ idle/load  65/135watts

22:19 <Soul_keeper> ok those are the exact numbers, found them in my logs

22:20 <efc> Hmm, makes it a no-brainer, the atom is worse flops/watt, which I find strage

22:20 <efc> though the chipset is holding it back a lot power wise

22:20 <Soul_keeper> yeah apparently an undervolted/underclocked 2cd wastes it on that flops/watt ratio

22:20 <Soul_keeper> c2d*

22:21 <efc> even your crazy O/Cd one does

22:21 <efc> and usually that makes the power do very badly

22:21 <Soul_keeper> yeah that's with no addon pci cards cept a gigabit nic, and only 1 fan, 1 hard drive

22:21 <efc> oh, thats a duo?

22:22 <Soul_keeper> yeah

22:22 <Soul_keeper> apparently has a the same chipset as the atom

22:23 <Soul_keeper> i945G

22:25 <efc> for rac/watts, higher is better, i get 8 on single core atom current chipset, 12 on your c2d, 16 on a hypothetical dual core atom with a bit better chipset

22:25 <efc> will try to do lifetime costs now

22:32 * efc looks for a paste bot

22:33 <Soul_keeper> the cheapest 45nm chip by intel is 129 bucks

22:33 <Soul_keeper> dual core 2.53GHz

22:34 <efc> over 5 years, your core2duo wins slightly over the dual atom in RAC/$ (higher is better)

22:35 <Soul_keeper> that chip apparently has the same TDP as my chip when clocked at 1.8GHz

22:35 <efc> small changes in the assumptions tend to throw that greatly though

22:35 <efc> the c2 is still costing $600 in juice over 5 years but doing a lot more rac

22:35 <Soul_keeper> could probably knock 30Watts off the entire system if built with a 45nm chip

22:36 <efc> there's probably some math errors in here...

22:36 <Soul_keeper> yeah no reason to go atom for anything processor intensive

22:37 <efc> the dual atom wins, if it drops power a little

22:38 <Soul_keeper> yeah compared to my old 65nm c2d

22:38 <Soul_keeper> the newer 45nm should drop the c2d's power usage 30% i figure

22:38 <efc> its only %2 behind at 40 watts for dual atom

22:40 <Soul_keeper> yeah their future dual atom's and newer chipsets should make things more interesting

22:40 <efc> even taking CPU power alone the atom isn't that good

22:41 <Soul_keeper> it's only goal was to have the lowest power usage, and be cheap to produce

22:41 <efc> the initial cost is the problem

22:41 <Soul_keeper> everything else was sacrificed

22:42 <Soul_keeper>

22:42 <Romulus> <> (at

22:42 <efc> I'm not really satisfied with the numbers.. small changes in the assumptions make a big difference

22:43 <efc> if you can assemble for $100, cut power to 20 watts, single core atom ties the c2d

22:43 <efc> and the dual wins with similar improvements

22:43 <Soul_keeper> can't do it for 100, the cpu/motherboard alone cost 76 bucks plus tax/shipping

22:45 <efc> i'll try a hypothetical FPGA for the heck of it

22:46 <Tank_Master> use spare HDs and CD drives

22:46 <Tank_Master> you should be able to do it for $100

22:46 <Tank_Master> it only uses 1 stik of RAM, so that cuts some possible cost there

22:47 <efc> Also I assume 10c/kw*hr electricity, increase that cost, the atoms do better

22:48 <Soul_keeper> 129 (cpu) + 50 (motherboard) + 15 (psu) + 15 (2 sticks of mem) + 35 (hard drive)  = c2d system that pulls 100watts or less under full load

22:48 <efc> mine are 15c/kwhr, but i pay $20 for the first one

22:48 <Soul_keeper> that's about 250 bucks

22:49 <Soul_keeper> cheapest prices off of newegg

22:50 <efc> have to know the RAC, power, and cost to evaluate it

22:50 <Soul_keeper> same parts for the atom would be as follows:

22:51 <Soul_keeper> 73 (atom/board) + 15 (psu) + 8 (memory) + 35 (hard drive)

22:51 <Soul_keeper> 130 bucks

22:52 <Tank_Master> dont you have a spare HD?

22:52 <Soul_keeper> no

22:52 <Tank_Master> bummer

22:52 <efc> I think for a real mass farm you'd want to drop the drive on both platforms and netboot over a server

22:52 <Soul_keeper> we are trying to see the comparison for mass builds

22:52 <Soul_keeper> like if you built 10 of them or something i guess

22:52 <Tank_Master> efc - true

22:52 <efc> some of the more dedicated people have used a shared power supply (some big one)

22:53 <Tank_Master> Ie done a live CD that pulled the work from a network share

22:53 <Tank_Master> so no local HD

22:53 <efc> Just UPS the server and you can even recover from a power loss w/o toasting the Wus

22:53 <Soul_keeper> that could work, but you'd still need a cdrom drive, or flash stick to pull it off

22:54 <efc> You can really boot over the network completely - I think modern BIOS has it built in but not sure. You used to need a special boot prom on your ethernet board.

22:54 <Tank_Master> but with a CD, you can have it load the OS into RAM, so after its loaded, the CD wont need to be accessed much

22:54 <Soul_keeper> well i guess they got those special network cards with a bootable bios on them or whatever

22:54 <Tank_Master> efc - yes, they do

22:54 <Tank_Master> its disabled by default

22:55 <Tank_Master> but just enable it and you can boot off the network

22:55 <efc> so that would save you cost and watts of a HD (ignoring the server for like 20 of these things)

22:55 <efc> also reliability, with 20, your gonna have some fails

22:55 <Tank_Master> 20? Ive done 40 in the past

22:55 <Soul_keeper> basically the c2d costs exactely twice as much as the atom build

22:56 <Tank_Master> though booting from a CD then accessing a share to load BOINC

22:56 <efc> Will hammer the server pretty good on a farm boot but it will live

22:56 <Tank_Master> only if they all access it at once

22:56 <Tank_Master> but it will still work, just slower

22:57 <Tank_Master> is there a way to get BOINC to d/l more than 2 files at once, yet only u/l 2 files at once?

22:58 <Tank_Master> Im using 5.10.45 x64 win

23:00 <efc> Dunno, hven't seen that option

23:02 <Tank_Master> seemed like there was if you eddited one of the XML files

23:04 <efc> only see user_network_request

23:05 <efc> what kind of RAC would you see on a P4-2.8g ? (I've got one but its not running all the time)

23:05 <Tank_Master> with HT?

23:05 <efc> single thread, no HT

23:05 <Soul_keeper> amd cheapo config:  60 (cpu) + 40 (motherboard) + 15 (psu) + 8 (memory) + 35 (hard drive)   ~158   that's dual core 2.1GHz

23:05 <Tank_Master> so no 64bit either

23:05 <Tank_Master> Id guess around 350-450

23:06 <Soul_keeper> 45watt chip

23:06 <efc> i'm getting something around 200 now but don't know how long it usually runs per day, half time or so

23:06 <efc> Good enough for this calculation

23:06 <Soul_keeper> probably around 100 watts or less total power drawl, comparable to the c2d,  RAC is likely slightly lower, but initial cost is 100 less

23:07 <efc> FPGA does great, now I just have to do 5 years of work to build it :P

23:07 <Soul_keeper> efc,  i got my 2.8e up and crunching now

23:07 <Soul_keeper> it's oc'd at 3.1GHz tho

23:08 <efc> I was just basing the fpga performance off p4, only reason it mattered

23:08 <efc> total guess really

23:08 <Soul_keeper> still too early for boincstats to give me a RAC

23:09 <efc> it would have terrific rac/$ lifetime, but it doesn't exist, which is a drawback

23:10 <efc> like 28k/$ with the regular cpus in the 1 to 3k/$ range

23:11 <efc> making all kinds of crazy assumptions on how efficiently it could be used

23:11 <Soul_keeper> the P4 probably loses to the atom

23:11 <efc> (28k rac/$ is based off about half the theoretical peak)

23:11 <efc> yeah p4 is a pig

23:13 <efc> video card would be interesting for comparison too, though, extremely hard to tell if its suitable for s@h at all, much less how fast it would run

23:14 <Tank_Master> what difference does the vid card make?

23:14 <Soul_keeper> yeah once they get video cards boincing it'll turn everything on it's head

23:15 <efc> clients running on the video card

23:15 <efc> the newest ones are getting general-purpose enough to almost do it

23:15 <efc> single/double precision floats

23:15 <Tank_Master> ahh, you mean like with the CUBE programming?

23:15 <efc> The progrmming model is difficult though and there are various constraints which might make it unsuitable

23:15 <efc> Yeah

23:15 <Tank_Master> cool

23:15 <efc> I think its like programming for an old cray

23:16 <Tank_Master> Id like to take my x280 out for a spin once I get it

23:16 <efc> vector oriented, bad when you do a data dependent branch

23:17 <Soul_keeper> my 3870  would probably outperform my cpu easily

23:17 <Soul_keeper> too many variables, nothing practical or real world yet

23:19 <Tank_Master> *yet*

23:20 <efc> the theoretical gflops is insane

23:20 <efc> and they have a ton of memory bandwidth

23:22 <Soul_keeper> 800 stream processors in the latest 4870

23:23 *** wdsmia has joined #Boinc

23:24 <efc> But I don't think all the processors can get at all of the memory, at least not quickly

23:24 <efc> s@h works on about a 8 meg data set, probably more than they will be good at, at least without rearranging things some

23:25 *** freakazoid0223 has quit IRC

23:34 <efc> Uh, Wimbleton Update, who watches this crap

23:36 <efc> anand was guestimating the GT200 as about 100x a cpu in folding@home but couldn't measure it precisely

23:36 <efc> 100x a quadcore

23:40 <efc> and, and there was this thing.

23:40 <Romulus> <> (at

23:45 <Soul_keeper> i'd guess much lower

23:45 <Soul_keeper> i've seen more realistic estimates in the 4 to 8x faster range

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23:55 <Tank_Master> I think I have room for some of those servers...

23:55 <Tank_Master> how meny children would I have to give up for one of those?

23:56 <Soul_keeper> 2

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