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03:59 <CoderForLife> &wx 45140
03:59 <Romulus> CoderForLife: Temperature: 57.9°F / 14.4°C | Humidity: 86% | Pressure: 29.63in / 1003.3hPa (Steady) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: West | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Today - Mostly sunny. Highs in the lower 80s. West winds 5 to 10 mph.; Tonight - Clear. Lows in the upper 50s. South winds around 5 mph.; Wednesday - Mostly sunny. Highs in the upper 80s. Southwest winds 10 to 15 mph.;
04:16 <efc> moo
04:24 <CoderForLife> moo
04:32 <fishsponge__> hey people - i merged my hosts across all of the projects last week, but my boincstats account manager (BAM) still hasn't updated accordingly - it still sees my rebuilt machine as a new host...
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05:00 <efc> boincstats has boinced my stats for a while now
05:06 <efc> &weather 31088
05:06 <Romulus> efc: Temperature: 63°F / 17°C | Humidity: 97% | Pressure: 30.02in / 1017hPa (Rising) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: North | Wind Speed: 0mph / 0km/h ; Today - Mostly sunny. Highs around 90. Northwest winds 5 to 10 mph.; Tonight - Mostly clear. Lows in the lower 60s. North winds up to 10 mph.; Wednesday - Sunny. Highs in the lower 90s. Southeast winds up to 10 mph.; Fire Weather Warning for Houston (1 more message)
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05:31 <CoderForLife> off to w@#%
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06:14 <fishsponge__> can anyone help? i merged my hosts across all of the projects last week, but my boincstats account manager (BAM) still hasn't updated accordingly - it still sees my rebuilt machine as a new host...
06:31 <hawmps> blah
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09:13 <PovAdct_w> logs <3
09:13 <PovAdct_w> fishsponge__: BAM is independent of all that
09:13 <PovAdct_w> *delete* the old hosts on BAM
09:14 <PovAdct_w> BAM has no idea of your hosts according to the projects
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09:32 <fishsponge__> PovAdct_w: that's what i thought, but everyone told me that BAM would automatically update once i'd fixed all of the projects...
09:32 <fishsponge__> besides, i don't want to delete my old hosts, i want to merge them - my machine is still the same machine, with the same hostname - it's just has it's operating system re-installed
09:34 <PovAdct_w> there isn't any data to merge in BAM
09:35 <PovAdct_w> I think you're greatly confusing BAM and stats
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09:39 <fishsponge__> well, on BAM, i can see two hosts - my machine before the rebuild, and my machine after the rebuild. Each has it's own stats
09:39 <fishsponge__> i want to tell BAM that they are the same machine!
09:40 <PovAdct_w> no, stats are completely independent from BAM
09:40 <fishsponge__> ok, sorry - i should be saying BoincStats
09:40 * fishsponge__ tries not to look too stupid... lol
09:40 <PovAdct_w> do you use 'fishsponge' as username on BOINC?
09:40 <fishsponge__> yeah
09:41 <fishsponge__> well on boincstats i do - BOINC itself uses an email address, of course
09:41 <PovAdct_w> to login, yeah; but there's also a name that's used just to display
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09:47 <PovAdct_w> &ping
09:47 <Romulus> pong
09:47 <PovAdct_w> ok this web IRC broke
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09:49 <PovAdct_w> Didactylos: I can't send messages on PM
09:49 <PovAdct_w> I press Enter and the input box clears but my message doesn't appear in the log
09:50 <Didactylos> Okay. Later, then.
09:50 <PovAdct_w> but I did see your messages
09:51 <PovAdct_w> I assigned wxString to empty string explicitly just because I saw it being done that way elsewhere
09:51 <Didactylos> Oh, I got that. No worries.
09:51 <Didactylos> I was just contemplating cleaning them all up.
09:51 <Didactylos> Simpler code is easier to maintain, I believe.
09:52 <PovAdct_w> oh for sure
09:52 <Didactylos> Now I need to test Charlies other change.
09:53 <Didactylos> It's split over several commits. Confused me, it did :-)
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10:14 <jackygrahamez> hi
10:15 <jackygrahamez> So David thinks I got a .NET issue compiling the boinc wrapper and redistributing it, any ideas?
10:16 <Didactylos> What sort of issue?
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10:20 <jackygrahamez> He said I should look at this post http://forums.msdn.microsoft.com/en/vbgeneral/thread/1fad6ca4-f255-43f6-99d3-3131e83d8c2c
10:21 <jackygrahamez> So I was working on this new wrapper with him two weeks ago
10:21 <jackygrahamez> so we could call the files under the projects directory
10:21 <jackygrahamez> It worked on my own computers which have .Net 3.5
10:22 <jackygrahamez> It fails on the second task for all the people I distribute the application to
10:22 <jackygrahamez> So I figure these binaries need to be more universal
10:22 <jackygrahamez> just compiling on Windows for now
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10:46 <PovAdct_w> jackygrahamez: why would it have anything to do with .NET?
10:46 <PovAdct_w> is your wrapper written in C#?
10:47 <jackygrahamez> no
10:47 <PovAdct_w> that's one thing I hate of .NET, you get visual studio and you can get confused on whether you're compiling a native app or a .NET app
10:48 <jackygrahamez> Just opening the boinc_samples in VS c++ 2008 and trying to follow the instructions on the wiki
10:48 <jackygrahamez> the samples I take it should be native
10:48 <PovAdct_w> everything should be
10:49 <PovAdct_w> I seem to have lost contact with my home computer
10:49 <PovAdct_w> replies ping but nothing else
10:50 <PovAdct_w> (and ping is replied by my router anyway)
10:50 <PovAdct_w> &any povaddict
10:50 <Romulus> PovAdct_w: povaddict was last seen in #boinc 12 minutes and 53 seconds ago: *** PovAddict has quit IRC (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
10:50 <jackygrahamez> &wx 20011
10:50 <Romulus> jackygrahamez: Temperature: 76.5°F / 24.7°C | Humidity: 63% | Pressure: 29.83in / 1010.0hPa (Steady) | Conditions: Scattered Clouds | Wind Direction: SSW | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Today - Partly sunny. Scattered showers this afternoon. Highs near 80. Northwest winds 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 30 percent.; Tonight - Mostly cloudy. Isolated showers in the evening. Lows in the mid 60s. Northwest winds 5 (1 more message)
10:52 <jackygrahamez> Do I need to make sure C++/CLI is enabled?
10:52 <PovAdct_w> no, make sure it's *disabled*
10:52 <jackygrahamez> ok
10:52 <PovAdct_w> CLI = Common Language Infrastructure = .NET
10:53 <jackygrahamez> I don't suppose I can backstep to VS 2005
10:56 <jackygrahamez> I looked in the wrapper properties and it says Framework and References Targeted Framework .NET Framework 2.0
10:57 <PovAdct_w> I never used VS myself
10:57 <jackygrahamez> what do you use?
10:57 <jackygrahamez> maybe I should switch
10:57 <PovAdct_w> a text editor and GNU C Compiler
10:58 <jackygrahamez> sounds good with me, do you have to write a lot of command line to compile though?
10:59 <PovAdct_w> well, once the build system is set up, you just type 'make' :)
10:59 <jackygrahamez> You don't need to run configure?
11:00 <PovAdct_w> you do, if you write a configure script
11:00 <PovAdct_w> (and anyway, you only run it once, then it's just 'make' for each time you modify the code and want to re-compile it)
11:03 <jackygrahamez> ah I just tried to make it in cygwin, no luck
11:03 <PovAdct_w> remember you need to compile the BOINC API too
11:04 <jackygrahamez> I've been there done that and never sucessfully compiled boinc API in cygwin
11:04 <jackygrahamez> but I do have it compiled in VSC++ 2008
11:05 <PovAdct_w> they aren't compatible afaik
11:05 <jackygrahamez> figures
11:05 <PovAdct_w> I *think* libraries built with MSVC can be used in MinGW and vice versa, but consider Cygwin a different platform
11:06 <PovAdct_w> ugh, what's up with my home comp
11:07 <PovAdct_w> "No route to host"
11:08 <PovAdct_w> btw, you can also install mingw on a Linux machine
11:08 <PovAdct_w> and compile Windows apps from it
11:09 <jackygrahamez> sweet
11:10 <Didactylos> jackygrahamez: I think 2005 supports 2.0 out of the box.
11:10 <PovAdct_w> .NET 2.0?
11:10 <Didactylos> Yes
11:11 <PovAdct_w> the thing is... how to make it *not* use *any* .NET
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11:12 <Didactylos> This is a .NET wrapper, yes? Then it's going to need CLI support, surely?
11:12 <PovAdct_w> it's the official native wrapper trying to wrap a native application
11:12 <PovAdct_w> and the stupid VS says it's building it targeted at .NET
11:12 <Didactylos> jackygrahamez's problem is a .NET 3.5 dependancy, I think.
11:12 <jackygrahamez> I'm just trying to do a vanila compile
11:12 <Didactylos> Oh. No .NET at all?
11:13 <jackygrahamez> correct
11:13 <PovAdct_w> I see no .NET stuff in boinc_samples :)
11:14 <Didactylos> jackygrahamez: what error are you actually getting?
11:14 <jackygrahamez> The error I have is not executing on other people's machines, otherwise it works fine for me
11:15 <jackygrahamez> I shared the errors with David A and he thinks its just the .NET issue
11:15 <Didactylos> Well, have you checked the MSVC dependancies?
11:15 <PovAdct_w> link to one of the failed WUs
11:15 <Didactylos> 2008 uses a version not commonly available.
11:21 <jackygrahamez> I'm looking under linker
11:21 <jackygrahamez> for wrapper app
11:21 <jackygrahamez> it says link library dependencies
11:21 <jackygrahamez> yes
11:22 <jackygrahamez> Also looking under C/C++
11:23 <jackygrahamez> Not sure what I'm looking for
11:23 <Didactylos> Use depends to check what DLLs it needs.
11:24 <Didactylos> Look for MSVCRT80
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11:31 <jackygrahamez> what is depends? Does that come with VS
11:31 <jackygrahamez> ?
11:34 <PovAdct_w> it should
11:35 <PovAdct_w> Dependency Walker
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13:02 <jackygrahamez> Just got back from lunch, I downloaded dependency walker seperately
13:04 <Didactylos> It's easier if you run it on the computer where the program won't run - then it flags the missing dependency for you.
13:05 <Didactylos> I could check it for you, if you want?
13:08 <jackygrahamez> cool how can I send it?
13:08 <jackygrahamez> I know
13:08 <jackygrahamez> hold
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13:17 <Didactylos> Well, it runs on my machine.
13:17 <Didactylos> Only thing that may be a problem is MSVCP60.dll, but that should be available on most machines.
13:21 <jackygrahamez> well David could be wrong...:-)
13:21 <jackygrahamez> another thing for me to test, see if this wrapper works with another application
13:22 <jackygrahamez> It could be related to the way we are trying to call the project subdirectories using this variable
13:22 <jackygrahamez> its a new way of running apps
13:23 <jackygrahamez> I proposed the idea
13:23 <jackygrahamez> so far it only works on my computer
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13:24 <jackygrahamez> I hope I get it working soon
13:27 <Tank_Master> o.O?
13:28 <Tank_Master> huh, its illegal in Texas for a computer repair shop to do any sort of analysis of a customer's computer without obtaining a private investigator's license
13:29 <Tank_Master> sounds like a way for the gov to make $$
13:29 <PovAdct_w> what the
13:29 <jackygrahamez> hmm
13:29 <jackygrahamez> Texas certified Geek
13:29 <Tank_Master> :P
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13:58 <darev> hi, leuts
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14:00 <paddyez> Stimmung!
14:00 <jackygrahamez> &wx 20001
14:00 <Romulus> jackygrahamez: Temperature: 82.0°F / 27.8°C | Humidity: 50% | Pressure: 29.83in / 1010.0hPa (Falling) | Conditions: Mostly Cloudy | Wind Direction: SSW | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; This Afternoon - Partly sunny with scattered showers and isolated thunderstorms. Highs in the lower 80s. Northwest winds 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 30 percent.; Tonight - Mostly cloudy. Isolated showers in the evening. Lows in (1 more message)
14:12 <jackygrahamez> &more
14:12 <Romulus> jackygrahamez: the mid 60s. Northwest winds 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 20 percent.; Wednesday - Mostly sunny. Highs in the upper 80s. West winds 5 to 10 mph.;
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15:52 <xcamel> re-hi
15:52 <xcamel> spork >> 220.127.116.11
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16:33 <PovAddict> looks like I had a power failure over here
16:36 <Tank_Master> looks like Im having a router failer
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16:51 <Romulus> Title: Changeset 15525 - BOINC - Trac (at boinc.berkeley.edu)
16:51 <Didactylos> No.
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16:52 <PovAddict> because it looks like something I fixed in synec. :)
16:52 <Didactylos> Identical.
16:52 <Didactylos> Which is why in legal disputes over copyright, code can often only be written one way.
16:53 <PovAddict> does Charlie know of the fork?
16:53 <Didactylos> This is why I like UK patent rules.
16:53 <Didactylos> I don't know. I think if he did, he would have merged some of the other fixes.
16:54 <PovAddict> that's something I read about software forking, and thought wouldn't really happen with BOINC:
16:54 <PovAddict> somebody forks the Linux kernel
16:54 <PovAddict> adds some features, fixes some stuff
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16:55 <PovAddict> Linus Torvalds says "thank you", merges his changes, and the fork now provides nothing the official kernel doesn't provide, and in addition it's already outdated
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16:55 <PovAddict> I don't think that would happen with BOINC
16:55 <Didactylos> I'm (sadly) fairly sure BOINC won't do that. I wish they would, though.
16:56 <PovAddict> if changes don't get merged when we send them to the devs directly, low chance the devs will actively look for them in a fork to merge them back
16:56 <Didactylos> Good coders should be humble enough to recognise good code in other, and weaknesses in their own code.
16:57 <Romulus> PovAddict: Error: The command "title" is available in the Format and Web plugins. Please specify the plugin whose command you wish to call by using its name as a command before "title".
16:57 <Didactylos> Can you try resizing the manager window, and tell me if the status bar "Connected" field flickers?
16:57 <PovAddict> ...oops, I have Romulus on ignore, so I wouldn't see what he replied :P
16:58 <Romulus> PovAddict: Error: The command "title" is available in the Format and Web plugins. Please specify the plugin whose command you wish to call by using its name as a command before "title".
16:58 <Romulus> PovAddict: Welcome page
16:58 <PovAddict> good, network working
16:58 <PovAddict> Didactylos: I'd have to reconfigure my window manager first
16:58 <PovAddict> when I resize a window, it shows a semitransparent outline, and only actually resizes contents when I release
16:58 <Didactylos> Doesn't do realtime sizing?
16:59 <PovAddict> due to deficiencies in X and the way it handles composited windows... realtime resizing is slow enough to be annoying
17:00 <PovAddict> also, realtime resizing makes it easier to notice how everything is super-fast tear-free except redrawing the window contents
17:01 <PovAddict> (most widget toolkits aren't hardware accelerated, maybe not even double buffered)
17:01 <PovAddict> ok, configured "normal" window resizing
17:02 <PovAddict> nothing flickers, but sometimes the "Connected to" text moves before the statusbar borders redraw, so the border covers the text briefly
17:02 * PovAddict changes to a software-rendered window manager
17:03 <PovAddict> nope, no flicker; but slow redrawing for sure
17:04 <PovAddict> augh! when I move a window I can see the windows behind redrawing themselves when exposed >_<
17:05 * PovAddict goes back to GPU-rendered goodness
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17:17 <Tank_Master> haha
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17:41 <xcamel> &wx 12074
17:42 <Romulus> xcamel: Temperature: 74.0°F / 23.3°C | Humidity: 59% | Pressure: 29.91in / 1012.8hPa (Rising) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: SSE | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Tonight - Partly cloudy. Scattered thunderstorms this evening. Lows in the upper 50s. West winds up to 5 mph this evening becoming light. Chance of precipitation 40 percent.; Wednesday - Partly sunny. Highs in the lower 80s. Southwest winds up (1 more message)
17:42 <xcamel> &more
17:42 <Romulus> xcamel: to 10 mph.; Wednesday Night - Mostly clear. Lows in the lower 60s. South winds 5 to 10 mph.;
17:48 <PovAddict> Didactylos: http://boinc.berkeley.edu/trac/changeset/15530/trunk/boinc/client/cpp.h
17:48 <PovAddict> pwned?
17:50 <xcamel> likely
17:51 <Didactylos> Go Eric.
17:52 <Didactylos> How did he get commit access? :+)
17:55 <PovAddict> well, he's SETI@Home "Project Scientist"
17:56 <Didactylos> Ah yes.
17:56 <Didactylos> You want to merge it? I have a lot of uncommited changes here.
17:58 <PovAddict> changes to mgr stuff?
18:00 <Didactylos> Yes, they probably don't overlap.
18:04 <PovAddict> I see ugly stuff in the automake files
18:04 <PovAddict> the whatever_SOURCES variable should include the header files
18:04 <PovAddict> but it doesn't, it just has the .C files
18:04 <PovAddict> then they put "EXTRA_DIST=*.h"
18:05 <PovAddict> any wildcard in the build system is a bad idea (would be worse if they had put "*.C" as source list)
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18:11 <PovAddict> I just noticed that messy MFILE class could be replaced with a std::stringstream...
18:12 <Didactylos> Indeed.
18:12 <PovAddict> and MIOFILE could be any iostream depending on what's needed
18:12 <Didactylos> Upgrading from C to C++ is something that needs doing.
18:12 <PovAddict> (apparently main use is for sockets; that can be done by writing a socket-based streambuf)
18:12 <Didactylos> Not a trivial change, though.
18:13 <PovAddict> hmm have a look at lib/miofile.h; any idea why the <string> include isn't done on Windows?
18:14 <Didactylos> As Eric observed - it's messed up.
18:14 <Didactylos> I think the short answer is - it IS needed.
18:15 <PovAddict> remove the ifndef and see if it compiles; maybe there is some reason due to weird MSVC stuff (in which case there should be a comment about it!)
18:15 <Didactylos> Ran into similar problems with vectors in the manager code.
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18:23 <PovAddict> I modified two client files so that they don't need cpp.h at all
18:27 <Didactylos> Where's config.h?
18:28 <PovAddict> it's generated by ./configure
18:28 <Romulus> Title: general pastebin - Untitled - post number 1059980 (at pastebin.ca)
18:30 <PovAddict> many .h files declare classes that have std::vector members, but don't include <vector>
18:30 <PovAddict> that seems to be a guideline...
18:30 <PovAddict> "A .C file should have the minimum set of #includes to get that particular file to compile (e.g. the includes needed by foo.C should be in foo.C, not foo.h)." (from trac/wiki/CodingStyle)
18:31 <PovAddict> what's your opinion on that?
18:32 <PovAddict> I think if foo.C uses the Bar class from bar.h, and the Bar class has a vector member, foo.C author shouldn't have to include <vector> (particularly if he doesn't even know that member is there)
18:33 <PovAddict> and if a string member is added, suddenly all .C files using it stop compiling?
18:33 <Didactylos> You put it much better than I could.
18:34 <PovAddict> on my GUIRPC library, I could change the container used for TaskList without breaking existing code
18:35 <PovAddict> (well, at least if recompiled; binary compatibility probably ain't going to happen)
18:37 <PovAddict> ooh another evil
18:38 <PovAddict> 'using' declarations in header files
18:38 <PovAddict> moves 'vector' into the global namespace of *other* .C files, which may not like that...
18:39 <Didactylos> What's the point of the icon in the status bar?
18:39 <PovAddict> well, the icon does change in connected/disconnected states
18:40 <Didactylos> Really helpful. (Not)
18:40 <PovAddict> I was about to fix the includes in client_state.h, but I think that one will have to wait
18:40 <Didactylos> I'm strongly tempted to remove the icon.
18:41 <PovAddict> I don't have any strong opinion in either direction; so go ahead
18:41 * Rookie_69 wanders off to see which e-book is playing on the comp-box in the bedroom...
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18:41 <Didactylos> Well, I'm going to add at least one new field, so space is premium.
18:42 <Didactylos> Okay, it's gone. Easy enough to put it back later....
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18:44 <xcamel> re-back
18:49 <PovAddict> I think there are indeed files including too much
18:49 <PovAddict> I change obscure stuff like time_stats and it feels as if the whole client got recompiled
18:54 *** wdsmia_ is now known as wdsmia
18:55 <Didactylos> wxString doesn't generate unused variable warnings. Odd.
18:55 <PovAddict> like, if you have a useless wxString local var?
18:56 <Didactylos> Yes.
18:57 <PovAddict> that's how it works with any C++ class as far as I know
18:57 <Didactylos> Java spoils me.
18:57 <PovAddict> I've seen classes like "Mutex" that are locked on construction and unlocked on destruction
18:58 <PovAddict> so a function could just have "Mutex m;" and never actually "use" the m variable
18:58 <PovAddict> but it's not useless :)
18:58 <Didactylos> True. I'm familiar with that pattern.
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19:17 <CoderForLife> evening
19:17 <CoderForLife> &wx 45140
19:17 <Romulus> CoderForLife: Temperature: 79.5°F / 26.4°C | Humidity: 39% | Pressure: 30.18in / 1021.9hPa (Falling) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: SSW | Wind Speed: 0.4mph / 0.6km/h ; Tonight - Clear. Lows in the upper 50s. South winds around 5 mph.; Wednesday - Mostly sunny. Highs in the upper 80s. Southwest winds 10 to 15 mph with gusts up to 25 mph.; Wednesday Night - Partly cloudy in the evening...then mostly (1 more message)
19:18 <CoderForLife> &more
19:18 <Romulus> CoderForLife: cloudy with a chance of showers and thunderstorms after midnight. Lows in the mid 60s. Southwest winds 10 to 15 mph...becoming light south winds after midnight. Chance of rain 40 percent.;
19:24 *** Tank_Master has quit IRC
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19:35 <xcamel> re-re-hi
19:35 <Tank_Master> re-re-wb
19:40 *** zombie67 has joined #boinc
19:43 <KathrynM> CoderForLife, xcamel Tank_Master --- morning
19:43 <KathrynM> oh yes, Didactylos and PovAddict too
19:43 <Tank_Master> mornin KM
19:44 <PovAddict> o/
19:44 <Didactylos> Hi, KathrynM
19:44 * KathrynM yawns
19:44 <Didactylos> Just in time to say goodnight.
19:44 <KathrynM> it's hump day
19:44 <KathrynM> I'll take your night Didactylos and you can go to w&@^ for me
19:45 <CoderForLife> hello KathrynM
19:45 <CoderForLife> hello xcamel Tank_Master PovAddict Didactylos
19:45 <Tank_Master> hoya CFL
19:45 <Tank_Master> hiya*
19:45 <CoderForLife> heya hiya hoya
19:46 <KathrynM> lol
19:46 <KathrynM> &wx ulsan
19:46 <Romulus> KathrynM: Temperature: 70Â°F / 21Â°C | Humidity: 94% | Pressure: 29.74in / 1007hPa | Conditions: Overcast | Wind Direction: SW | Wind Speed: 1mph / 2km/h | Updated: 7:16 AM KST; Overcast. High:75 ° F. / 24 ° C.; Chance of Rain. Low:64 ° F. / 18 ° C.; Chance of Rain. High:75 ° F. / 24 ° C.; Rain. Low:68 ° F. / 20 ° C.; Scattered Clouds. High:80 ° F. / 27 ° C.; Scattered Clouds. Low:68 ° F. / 20 ° C.;
19:46 <CoderForLife> M-i-c... k-e-y...
19:47 <KathrynM> m-o-u-s-e
19:47 <CoderForLife> I just remember, I saw all that as first run on our one family black and white TV, the one with all the tubes
19:55 *** efc has joined #boinc
19:55 <KathrynM> oink efc
19:57 <efc> hey
19:57 <efc> I looked up my good gaussian WU. There was indeed a star at that point.
19:57 <KathrynM> time to hit the shoer
19:57 <KathrynM> ugh... it's gonna be a long day
19:58 <KathrynM> I think I'll hit the shower. Not sure what I shoer would do to me.
19:58 <efc> Melt?
19:59 <KathrynM> dunno.
19:59 <KathrynM> <---- disappears
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20:17 <efc> here's my guassian (middle of the screen, HD224724 http://www.wikisky.org/?ra=0&de=7.999999999999998&zoom=8&show_grid=1&show_constellation_lines=1&show_constellation_boundaries=1&show_const_names=0&show_galaxies=1&show_box=1&box_ra=0&box_de=8&box_width=50&box_height=50&img_source=DSS2
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20:34 <CoderForLife> efc hit a star
20:35 <efc> my insurance doesn't cover that if the star was moving
20:35 <Tank_Master> did the celeb deserve getting hit?
20:37 <CoderForLife> only if the star causes a fire, or explosion, or enables theives to enter your property
20:37 <Tank_Master> lol
20:38 <CoderForLife> oh wait - that's my landslide coverage
20:39 <CoderForLife> I'm getting a sub-carrier signal from HD224724
20:39 <CoderForLife> it says...
20:39 <CoderForLife> "The South Will Rise Again"
20:40 <CoderForLife> "Save S&H Green Stamps"
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20:40 <efc> is there an encoded dukes of hazzard rerun?
20:40 <CoderForLife> "Elvis Says Hi"
20:41 <CoderForLife> No, something about the Munich Olympic Games
20:42 <CoderForLife> brb bio
20:47 <xcamel> re-re-re-hi-hi
20:48 <xcamel> you tuning in alien freqencies again?
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20:50 <xcamel> slick little yellow star...
20:51 <efc> 160 something parsecs
20:51 <efc> must be a little radio-noisy
20:52 <xcamel> there are a bunch of those...
20:53 <xcamel> and there is another theory... some stars can focus a great deal of noise from "behind" them...
20:53 <xcamel> especially otherwise unremarkable stars
20:53 <xcamel> similar to einstein lensing
20:53 <CoderForLife> the spaceship traveling in the tail?
20:54 <xcamel> intensly focused magnetic fields..
20:54 * CoderForLife puts on his aluminum foil hat
20:54 <efc> they'd have to have quite a gravity well to bend light much
20:54 * xcamel 's hat is beryllium foil
20:55 <xcamel> not light - radio noise
20:55 <xcamel> 3.2-4.8GHz
20:56 <efc> they might as well be the same thing from a gravity perspective
20:57 <efc> I've never seen anything outside of the free energy crowd that magnetic fields can bend any form of light etc
21:00 <xcamel> gravity bends light, time, and space
21:00 * CoderForLife sees time bend to 9pm
21:01 <CoderForLife> time to turn out the Coding lights
21:01 <CoderForLife> nytol
21:01 <Tank_Master> tc
21:01 * CoderForLife sees that he was never here
21:02 <CoderForLife> spacetime bubble
21:02 * CoderForLife jumps over to the adjoining brane
21:03 <efc> magnetic
21:03 <xcamel> nice bit of "judicial jackass" there in georgia, E
21:03 <efc> ?
21:04 <xcamel> I guess the enviros really want you folks to freeze to death in the datk...
21:05 <efc> superior court, pretty low I think
21:05 <xcamel> you folks get no water, and no power.
21:05 <xcamel> pretty soon no food or gas either...
21:06 <efc> To appeal, or not to appeal
21:06 <efc> the problem with appeal is you set precedent. Precedent for no-more-power would be bad.
21:07 *** wdsmia has quit IRC
21:07 <xcamel> based on bad science too.
21:09 <efc> we'll see if the north pole melts this year. Somebody was predicting that.
21:10 <xcamel> melted many times before - I have a picture of 3 subs parked exactly there in July 1987
21:12 <PovAddict> rejecting a coal-based plant?
21:12 <efc> WP: The sea ice at the North Pole is typically around two or three meters thick, though there is considerable variation and occasionally the movement of floes exposes clear water
21:12 <PovAddict> lemme guess: they reject a coal-based power plant even though you have power shortage, yet they don't care as much about cars?
21:12 <PovAddict> :)
21:13 <xcamel> see here:
21:13 <efc> I don't think the cars put out nearly as much CO2 as the coal plants
21:13 <PovAddict> efc: depends how many cars
21:13 <efc> even though they are probably less efficient uses for the same amount of C)2
21:13 <xcamel> CO2 isn't really a greenhouse gas
21:14 <PovAddict> Chile is in extremely serious trouble about car pollution
21:14 <xcamel> not when it's only .0017 of the atmosphere.
21:14 <PovAddict> there's days where the streets look like you're inside a cloud
21:14 <xcamel> and it's vital to plantlife
21:15 <xcamel> water vapor is the biggie... good luck with that one, seeing the surface is 4/5 water...
21:15 <PovAddict> every day they say which license plate numbers are forbidden from driving (ie. if they say "all cars with license plates ending in 1 and 3 can't go out" they'd in theory lower traffic to an 80%)
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21:17 <efc> global warming might not be it, but I think we're really hitting the breaking point in the next few years somewhere in the environment
21:18 <efc> and I don't mean that we can't survive, we will, just not very pleasantly
21:18 <Soul_keeper> yeah we're screwed
21:18 <efc> We can feed a billion people in the US, sure, they will just be miserable
21:19 <PovAddict> the most ridiculous thing I see is people saying "there is no global warming [insert long list of arguments/scientific facts here] so we shouldn't care *at all* about pollution"
21:19 <xcamel> GW and pollution are two entirely different topics.
21:19 <efc> The breeding is the worst thing, whatever problems you have, it scales them all up, overwhelming any conservation
21:19 <PovAddict> exactly...
21:20 <Soul_keeper> everyone has an agenda
21:20 <efc> They nag the public in Atlanta about conserving water while they build new houses as fast as they can. One new house = conservation for 20 old ones (my guess)
21:21 <PovAddict> "why make non-polluting cars, these scientific facts say there is no GW"
21:21 <efc> The primary goal seems to be to keep the illegals employed. How that became a national priority I have no idea.
21:21 <PovAddict> sometimes there's also the "you're wrong, I'm right, and I won't even bother listening to you" attitude from both sides of the argument...
21:22 <efc> yeah the political crap does not help at all. We are hosed if we can't make rational decisions.
21:22 <PovAddict> tell me about it...
21:23 <efc> Which means we're hosed :p
21:23 <PovAddict> our gov giving ridiculously-high taxes to agriculture, then stretching facts to blame the farmers for everything that's wrong in the country, in a way that already got childish
21:25 <xcamel> that is all about people, and nothing about the planet...
21:25 <PovAddict> that was in relation to "political crap" and "can't make rational decisions", not about the env. topic
21:26 <efc> Democracy has its drawbacks in those regard
21:26 <xcamel> politics is not capable of making "rational decisions"
21:26 <xcamel> people however, are.
21:28 <xcamel> the same idiots were howling about the coming ice age 30 years ago...
21:28 <xcamel> and the "population bomb" BS, and the DDT baloney...\
21:29 <efc> you can get a nice long argument out of any of those topics
21:29 <efc> They seem to be beyond the capability of science to answer at the level of the public
21:29 <PovAddict> yeah, let's change to a topic that doesn't cause so many arguments, like BOINC credits... oh wait
21:30 <xcamel> yeah... right.
21:30 <efc> Quit frying the globe with your quad core power sucking hummer of a CPU that gets too many credits for its optimized client and thins egg shells to boot
21:30 * efc tosses conversational hand grenade
21:31 <xcamel> most of you are too young to understand that it's all about control. nothing more, nothing less.
21:31 <PovAddict> efc: sounds like something Romulus would say
21:31 <efc> &markov global
21:31 <Romulus> No idea.
21:31 <PovAddict> &markov
21:31 <Romulus> markov is running amok, PovAddict
21:32 <xcamel> you fine folks bitched about it too much... I turned it off.
21:32 <xcamel> unless called directly - which is mostly pointless.
21:32 <efc> The triggered markov is fine, it was the random ones..
21:33 <PovAddict> markov chains get more interesting with controlled input data
21:33 <xcamel> um... no.
21:34 <PovAddict> as in, get lots of text related to a specific topic and make chains from that
21:34 <xcamel> still pointless
21:34 <efc> Specific topic is whats optimized credit is a croc of global warming, PovAddict
21:35 <Soul_keeper> would running a system that uses a flash drive as it's main drive, would this slow down boinc noticeably ?
21:35 <Soul_keeper> usb flash drive
21:35 <PovAddict> Soul_keeper: I don't think so, but it will wear out the flash memory
21:35 <efc> Doubt it. The writes should(?) be buffered in ram, will seem fast to the app, if they are small.
21:35 <Soul_keeper> that's ok they are like 30 bucks
21:36 <efc> Linux could run off a read only filesystem I'd think
21:36 <PovAddict> efc: BOINC forces write buffer flush in many cases
21:36 <efc> At the OS level? or filesystem API level? (cout.flush())
21:36 <PovAddict> fflush(fp) yeah
21:37 <efc> Don't think the OS has to respect that though it might be wise to
21:38 <Soul_keeper> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121342 just wondering, because if i was to buy this no point in forking out dough for a hard drive
21:39 <efc> Net-booting might be an option. Often mentioned, seldom tried :)
21:40 <Soul_keeper> yeah i like traditional type installs
21:40 <efc> did they ever come out with some boards you can actually buy that don't use a Hummer H1 Polar-bear frying eggshell-thinning otter-oiling Chernobyl-glowing chipset?
21:41 <efc> for the atom
21:41 <Soul_keeper> not yet
21:42 <Soul_keeper> it does have HT, and i was thinking, it would be one of the cheapest ways to get "run time"
21:42 <Soul_keeper> via is now integrating their psu's onto the motherboards
21:42 * efc hands Soul_keeper a baby polar bear to personally execute
21:42 <Soul_keeper> or a daughter board
21:43 <efc> I recommend ranch dressing and red wine with the polar veal
21:43 <Soul_keeper> yeah we are gonna waste them fools
21:43 <efc> dad went to some convention once that a bunch of govt EPA type guys were at
21:43 <efc> somebody brought a (fake) can of "Spotted Owl Soup"
21:44 <efc> the govt dudes were extremely unhappy with that
21:44 <Soul_keeper> so yeah, amd's newest chip puts off 20% more heat, costs 10% more, than a comparable c2q
21:44 <Soul_keeper> lol
21:45 <xcamel> indeed
21:46 <Soul_keeper> i bet by the time amd gets a good 45nm quad out, intel will have a 32nm octacore out
21:46 <efc> those things would make a nice little NAT/router/all my always-on task boxes
21:47 <Soul_keeper> yeah
21:48 <efc> Dunno how much running boinc on it 24/7 would use over idle but probably not more than the 4 watts the CPU takes
21:49 <Soul_keeper> yeah not much
21:49 <efc> I could probably run one of those as a desktop 99% of the time and fire up the H1 for a game or two. only have a few serious tasks that need CPU (including uh boinc)
21:49 <Soul_keeper> are their projects that are only concerned with run time ?
21:51 <efc> I can't see why there would be..
21:51 <PovAddict> people would attach their 33MHz to them
21:51 <Soul_keeper> yeah
21:51 <Soul_keeper> figures
21:52 <efc> If there was some task that needed you to be online to process stuff with very short turnaround I could see it
21:53 <Soul_keeper> yeah or a hard drive limited project
21:53 <efc> Even then you'd want to weight it by platform speed
21:53 <efc> like say if s@h wanted to be able to gather some data and have it analyzed in 5 minutes they could award credit for being on standby
21:54 <efc> I think they actually do some stuff like that but use their own stuff for those quick turnarounds
21:54 <Soul_keeper> yeah they'd probably just do that kinda stuff on their local workstations/servers
21:54 <efc> Would be an interesting problem though
21:55 <efc> there are problems like (finding gamma ray bursts) that but seti isn't one of them
21:56 <Soul_keeper> the atom would only be good for winning bragging rights in a run time race
21:56 <Soul_keeper> because it has HT
21:57 <efc> How did the $/flop work out? (and i'd guess you'd want to figure out power cost in that too)
21:57 <Soul_keeper> it loses
21:57 <Soul_keeper> quad cores smoke it at $/flop
21:58 <Soul_keeper> i think i figured you'd need like 10 of them to match the output of a single budget quad setup
22:00 <efc> this looks like a task for Excell
22:02 <efc> How much can you put together a barebones cruncher Atom and Quad for?
22:02 <Soul_keeper> hard drives and psu's would be the most expensive part in a mass atom build
22:03 <Soul_keeper> probably 150-200 for an atom build
22:03 <efc> i'm assuming you'd use flash or net boot for both of them
22:04 <efc> The Barest of the Bare, Bare It All
22:04 <Soul_keeper> a quad c2d could be put together for about 400 or less
22:05 <Soul_keeper> well, i'm figure 20 or 30 dollar used/old hard drives, and 2 sticks of 256MB mem per system for like 20 bucks
22:05 <Soul_keeper> maybe 30 for a cheapo psu
22:05 <efc> just trying to establish initial cost, operating cost, and RAC for each
22:05 <Soul_keeper> no need for cases
22:06 <Soul_keeper> could just put them on shelves
22:06 <efc> That guy's Atom RAC is 328.11 atm, i'll use that
22:06 <Soul_keeper> ok
22:07 <efc> good power figures will be hard. need power at the outlet. Guestimate 25 for the atom?
22:08 <Soul_keeper> i havn't looked too much into it i'd have to google
22:08 <Tank_Master> 328RAC for a singlecore atom is about right
22:08 <Tank_Master> someone on my team has one
22:08 <Soul_keeper> i'd think the chipset alone would use 25 watts
22:08 <efc> 4 for the cpu, 12ish for chipset, some slop for ram and PSU etc. HD would add a notch more
22:09 <Soul_keeper> because the replacement chipset that intel has planned will use 15 watts
22:09 <efc> ok, make it 40
22:10 <Tank_Master> Id say you can expect aroun 650-700RAC from the dual core atoms coming out
22:10 <Soul_keeper> 945G has a TDP of 22.2w
22:10 <Romulus> Title: Atom-based system power consumption tested - The Tech Report (at techreport.com)
22:11 <Soul_keeper> VR-Zone registered about 39W on its power meter. Assuming 80% efficiency for the power supply, VR-Zone says that works out to only 32W of power draw at full load for the entire system
22:11 <Tank_Master> nice
22:11 <Tank_Master> so it would be feasable to stack these and get a decent RAC that way
22:12 <efc> then, sample RAC and power for a barebones quad core2?
22:12 <Soul_keeper> i measured mine at 60watts idle just over 100 under full load
22:13 <Soul_keeper> i'd put the RAC at 1500-2000
22:14 <Soul_keeper> that's actually a 65nm chip tho, and overclocked to 3GHz from 1.8 ...
22:14 <Tank_Master> lol
22:15 <Tank_Master> nice o/c
22:18 <efc> 100, pretty darn good
22:18 <efc> not sure if I'd want to figure a drastic o/c or not
22:19 <Soul_keeper> May 20 23:54:02 <Soul_keeper>c2d @3GHZ idle/load 65/135watts
22:19 <Soul_keeper> ok those are the exact numbers, found them in my logs
22:20 <efc> Hmm, makes it a no-brainer, the atom is worse flops/watt, which I find strage
22:20 <efc> though the chipset is holding it back a lot power wise
22:20 <Soul_keeper> yeah apparently an undervolted/underclocked 2cd wastes it on that flops/watt ratio
22:20 <Soul_keeper> c2d*
22:21 <efc> even your crazy O/Cd one does
22:21 <efc> and usually that makes the power do very badly
22:21 <Soul_keeper> yeah that's with no addon pci cards cept a gigabit nic, and only 1 fan, 1 hard drive
22:21 <efc> oh, thats a duo?
22:22 <Soul_keeper> yeah
22:22 <Soul_keeper> apparently has a the same chipset as the atom
22:23 <Soul_keeper> i945G
22:25 <efc> for rac/watts, higher is better, i get 8 on single core atom current chipset, 12 on your c2d, 16 on a hypothetical dual core atom with a bit better chipset
22:25 <efc> will try to do lifetime costs now
22:32 * efc looks for a paste bot
22:33 <Soul_keeper> the cheapest 45nm chip by intel is 129 bucks
22:33 <Soul_keeper> dual core 2.53GHz
22:34 <efc> over 5 years, your core2duo wins slightly over the dual atom in RAC/$ (higher is better)
22:35 <Soul_keeper> that chip apparently has the same TDP as my chip when clocked at 1.8GHz
22:35 <efc> small changes in the assumptions tend to throw that greatly though
22:35 <efc> the c2 is still costing $600 in juice over 5 years but doing a lot more rac
22:35 <Soul_keeper> could probably knock 30Watts off the entire system if built with a 45nm chip
22:36 <efc> there's probably some math errors in here...
22:36 <Soul_keeper> yeah no reason to go atom for anything processor intensive
22:37 <efc> the dual atom wins, if it drops power a little
22:38 <Soul_keeper> yeah compared to my old 65nm c2d
22:38 <Soul_keeper> the newer 45nm should drop the c2d's power usage 30% i figure
22:38 <efc> its only %2 behind at 40 watts for dual atom
22:40 <Soul_keeper> yeah their future dual atom's and newer chipsets should make things more interesting
22:40 <efc> even taking CPU power alone the atom isn't that good
22:41 <Soul_keeper> it's only goal was to have the lowest power usage, and be cheap to produce
22:41 <efc> the initial cost is the problem
22:41 <Soul_keeper> everything else was sacrificed
22:42 <efc> I'm not really satisfied with the numbers.. small changes in the assumptions make a big difference
22:43 <efc> if you can assemble for $100, cut power to 20 watts, single core atom ties the c2d
22:43 <efc> and the dual wins with similar improvements
22:43 <Soul_keeper> can't do it for 100, the cpu/motherboard alone cost 76 bucks plus tax/shipping
22:45 <efc> i'll try a hypothetical FPGA for the heck of it
22:46 <Tank_Master> use spare HDs and CD drives
22:46 <Tank_Master> you should be able to do it for $100
22:46 <Tank_Master> it only uses 1 stik of RAM, so that cuts some possible cost there
22:47 <efc> Also I assume 10c/kw*hr electricity, increase that cost, the atoms do better
22:48 <Soul_keeper> 129 (cpu) + 50 (motherboard) + 15 (psu) + 15 (2 sticks of mem) + 35 (hard drive) = c2d system that pulls 100watts or less under full load
22:48 <efc> mine are 15c/kwhr, but i pay $20 for the first one
22:48 <Soul_keeper> that's about 250 bucks
22:49 <Soul_keeper> cheapest prices off of newegg
22:50 <efc> have to know the RAC, power, and cost to evaluate it
22:50 <Soul_keeper> same parts for the atom would be as follows:
22:51 <Soul_keeper> 73 (atom/board) + 15 (psu) + 8 (memory) + 35 (hard drive)
22:51 <Soul_keeper> 130 bucks
22:52 <Tank_Master> dont you have a spare HD?
22:52 <Soul_keeper> no
22:52 <Tank_Master> bummer
22:52 <efc> I think for a real mass farm you'd want to drop the drive on both platforms and netboot over a server
22:52 <Soul_keeper> we are trying to see the comparison for mass builds
22:52 <Soul_keeper> like if you built 10 of them or something i guess
22:52 <Tank_Master> efc - true
22:52 <efc> some of the more dedicated people have used a shared power supply (some big one)
22:53 <Tank_Master> Ie done a live CD that pulled the work from a network share
22:53 <Tank_Master> so no local HD
22:53 <efc> Just UPS the server and you can even recover from a power loss w/o toasting the Wus
22:53 <Soul_keeper> that could work, but you'd still need a cdrom drive, or flash stick to pull it off
22:54 <efc> You can really boot over the network completely - I think modern BIOS has it built in but not sure. You used to need a special boot prom on your ethernet board.
22:54 <Tank_Master> but with a CD, you can have it load the OS into RAM, so after its loaded, the CD wont need to be accessed much
22:54 <Soul_keeper> well i guess they got those special network cards with a bootable bios on them or whatever
22:54 <Tank_Master> efc - yes, they do
22:54 <Tank_Master> its disabled by default
22:55 <Tank_Master> but just enable it and you can boot off the network
22:55 <efc> so that would save you cost and watts of a HD (ignoring the server for like 20 of these things)
22:55 <efc> also reliability, with 20, your gonna have some fails
22:55 <Tank_Master> 20? Ive done 40 in the past
22:55 <Soul_keeper> basically the c2d costs exactely twice as much as the atom build
22:56 <Tank_Master> though booting from a CD then accessing a share to load BOINC
22:56 <efc> Will hammer the server pretty good on a farm boot but it will live
22:56 <Tank_Master> only if they all access it at once
22:56 <Tank_Master> but it will still work, just slower
22:57 <Tank_Master> is there a way to get BOINC to d/l more than 2 files at once, yet only u/l 2 files at once?
22:58 <Tank_Master> Im using 5.10.45 x64 win
23:00 <efc> Dunno, hven't seen that option
23:02 <Tank_Master> seemed like there was if you eddited one of the XML files
23:04 <efc> only see user_network_request
23:05 <efc> what kind of RAC would you see on a P4-2.8g ? (I've got one but its not running all the time)
23:05 <Tank_Master> with HT?
23:05 <efc> single thread, no HT
23:05 <Soul_keeper> amd cheapo config: 60 (cpu) + 40 (motherboard) + 15 (psu) + 8 (memory) + 35 (hard drive) ~158 that's dual core 2.1GHz
23:05 <Tank_Master> so no 64bit either
23:05 <Tank_Master> Id guess around 350-450
23:06 <Soul_keeper> 45watt chip
23:06 <efc> i'm getting something around 200 now but don't know how long it usually runs per day, half time or so
23:06 <efc> Good enough for this calculation
23:06 <Soul_keeper> probably around 100 watts or less total power drawl, comparable to the c2d, RAC is likely slightly lower, but initial cost is 100 less
23:07 <efc> FPGA does great, now I just have to do 5 years of work to build it :P
23:07 <Soul_keeper> efc, i got my 2.8e up and crunching now
23:07 <Soul_keeper> it's oc'd at 3.1GHz tho
23:08 <efc> I was just basing the fpga performance off p4, only reason it mattered
23:08 <efc> total guess really
23:08 <Soul_keeper> still too early for boincstats to give me a RAC
23:09 <efc> it would have terrific rac/$ lifetime, but it doesn't exist, which is a drawback
23:10 <efc> like 28k/$ with the regular cpus in the 1 to 3k/$ range
23:11 <efc> making all kinds of crazy assumptions on how efficiently it could be used
23:11 <Soul_keeper> the P4 probably loses to the atom
23:11 <efc> (28k rac/$ is based off about half the theoretical peak)
23:11 <efc> yeah p4 is a pig
23:13 <efc> video card would be interesting for comparison too, though, extremely hard to tell if its suitable for s@h at all, much less how fast it would run
23:14 <Tank_Master> what difference does the vid card make?
23:14 <Soul_keeper> yeah once they get video cards boincing it'll turn everything on it's head
23:15 <efc> clients running on the video card
23:15 <efc> the newest ones are getting general-purpose enough to almost do it
23:15 <efc> single/double precision floats
23:15 <Tank_Master> ahh, you mean like with the CUBE programming?
23:15 <efc> The progrmming model is difficult though and there are various constraints which might make it unsuitable
23:15 <efc> Yeah
23:15 <Tank_Master> cool
23:15 <efc> I think its like programming for an old cray
23:16 <Tank_Master> Id like to take my x280 out for a spin once I get it
23:16 <efc> vector oriented, bad when you do a data dependent branch
23:17 <Soul_keeper> my 3870 would probably outperform my cpu easily
23:17 <Soul_keeper> too many variables, nothing practical or real world yet
23:19 <Tank_Master> *yet*
23:20 <efc> the theoretical gflops is insane
23:20 <efc> and they have a ton of memory bandwidth
23:22 <Soul_keeper> 800 stream processors in the latest 4870
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23:24 <efc> But I don't think all the processors can get at all of the memory, at least not quickly
23:24 <efc> s@h works on about a 8 meg data set, probably more than they will be good at, at least without rearranging things some
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23:34 <efc> Uh, Wimbleton Update, who watches this crap
23:36 <efc> anand was guestimating the GT200 as about 100x a cpu in folding@home but couldn't measure it precisely
23:36 <efc> 100x a quadcore
23:40 <efc> and, and there was this thing. http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3334&p=21
23:45 <Soul_keeper> i'd guess much lower
23:45 <Soul_keeper> i've seen more realistic estimates in the 4 to 8x faster range
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23:55 <Tank_Master> I think I have room for some of those servers...
23:55 <Tank_Master> how meny children would I have to give up for one of those?
23:56 <Soul_keeper> 2