IRC logs of #boinc for Monday, 2009-02-23

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02:44 <ELGono> &weather meiningen,germany

02:44 <Romulus> ELGono: Temperature: 32°F / 0°C | Humidity: 100% | Pressure: 29.83in / 1010hPa | Conditions: Overcast | Wind Direction: West | Wind Speed: 14mph / 22km/h | Updated: 8:20 AM CET; Unknown. High:35 F.; Chance of Snow. Low:32 F.; Chance of Snow. High:35 F.; Chance of Snow. Low:30 F.; Chance of Snow. High:35 F.; Chance of Snow. Low:30 F.;

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03:22 <Soul_keeper> &wx 91977

03:22 <Romulus> Soul_keeper: Temperature: 55.8F / 13.2C | Humidity: 92% | Pressure: 29.47in / 997.9hPa (Falling) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: South | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Tonight - Mostly cloudy. Slight chance of sprinkles. Lows 49 to 58. Light winds.; Monday - Partly cloudy with a slight chance of showers. Highs 67 to 72. Light winds. Chance of measurable precipitation 20 percent.; Monday (1 more message)

03:31 <CoderForLife> &wx 45140

03:31 <Romulus> CoderForLife: Temperature: 20.4F / -6.4C | Humidity: 79% | Pressure: 30.38in / 1028.7hPa (Steady) | Conditions: Mostly Cloudy | Wind Direction: East | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Overnight - Partly cloudy. A chance of snow showers this evening...then a slight chance of flurries. Lows around 15. Northwest winds 5 to 10 mph. Chance of snow 30 percent.; Monday - Mostly sunny. Highs around 30. (1 more message)

03:31 <CoderForLife> &more

03:31 <Romulus> CoderForLife: Northwest winds 5 to 10 mph.; Monday Night - Mostly clear. Lows around 15. North winds around 5 mph in the evening...becoming light and variable.;

03:49 <CoderForLife> brb  breakfast

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04:17 <FreeLarry> to CoderForLife -- brrrrr keep it

04:17 <FreeLarry> &wx 98366

04:17 <Romulus> FreeLarry: Temperature: 46.0F / 7.8C | Humidity: 91% | Pressure: 29.93in / 1013.4hPa (Rising) | Conditions: Overcast | Wind Direction: North | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Tonight - Showers. Lows in the lower 40s. Light wind becoming southeast near 10 mph after midnight.; Monday - Cloudy with a chance of rain in the morning...becoming likely south of Edmonds in the afternoon. Highs near 50. (1 more message)

04:17 <CoderForLife> I was looking to give it to someone

04:17 <CoderForLife> morning FreeLarry

04:18 <FreeLarry> lol not here thank you very much - PovAddict may like it about now

04:18 <FreeLarry> morn don

04:18 <Soul_keeper> good work

04:18 * FreeLarry glares at Soul_keeper and eyeballs case of lava soap

04:19 <FreeLarry> thats over for today

04:19 <CoderForLife> morning SP

04:19 <Soul_keeper> :)

04:19 <ELGono> moo

04:19 <FreeLarry> moo ELGono

04:19 <CoderForLife> morning JR =)

04:20 <ELGono> just got a good start into the week ;)

04:20 <CoderForLife> Mondays never are

04:20 <ELGono> finally some money arrived at bank account

04:20 <FreeLarry> just finished thursday here

04:20 <CoderForLife> how can that be?

04:20 <CoderForLife> ah money

04:21 <ELGono> university needed 4 weeks for that

04:21 * FreeLarry looks over at mountain of dead moths -- they faught bravely but lost

04:21 <ELGono> next i should double prices for renting projector to them

04:22 <CoderForLife> charge what the market will bear

04:23 <Soul_keeper> you'd think i could come up with better names for character arrays than  bullshit1 bullshit2 bullshit3 and whatever1 whatever2 for the ints ...

04:23 <wdsmia> asks Soul_keeper to please watch his or her language Thanks, your friendly channel op.

04:23 <FreeLarry> and when they want to buy a projector instead of renting  - sell it to them

04:24 <ELGono> hehe just offered an sanyo xf46 to them

04:24 <CoderForLife> yeah Soul_keeper - for multiple reasons

04:24 <ELGono> 12.000 ansi lumen ...

04:24 <ELGono> for just 10k euro

04:25 <Soul_keeper> it's like geeze i need to store some more "!#@"

04:25 <FreeLarry> that would make a materhorn of dead moths

04:26 <FreeLarry> well off to bed so tca

04:26 <FreeLarry> &bye

04:26 <Romulus> later ace

04:26 <CoderForLife> cya

04:26 <ELGono> laterz

04:34 <ELGono> yea! what a great day

04:35 <ELGono> josh wink comes back with new tracks

04:35 <ELGono> acid oldschool techno meetz minimal ;))

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04:52 <CoderForLife> wb KathrynM

04:52 <CoderForLife> how is the kitten's pet human today?

04:55 <CoderForLife> I'm going to get ready for w@#% - bbiab

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05:03 <KathrynM> Hola

05:03 <KathrynM> Kitten is sleeping on my foot right now.

05:03 <KathrynM> She's keeping it warm.

05:03 <KathrynM> Vet thinks she might be an Angora.

05:10 <Tank_Master> KM!

05:10 <Tank_Master> &cad

05:10 <Romulus> http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php

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05:46 <CoderForLife> hmm

05:48 <CoderForLife> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Angora

05:48 <Romulus> Title: Turkish Angora - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)

05:51 <KathrynM> the behavioral characteristics describe her to a tee

05:51 <CoderForLife> seems so

05:55 <CoderForLife> off to w@#% - retirement is so very very far away

05:55 <CoderForLife> laterz

05:56 <KathrynM> laterz

05:57 <Soul_keeper> CoderForLife, have you ever experienced  atoi();   only working half the time ?

05:57 <Soul_keeper> ahhh too late

06:32 <hawmps> spork >> 190.66.8.156, 59.160.109.213, 61.35.43.168, 218.22.67.123, 58.222.11.2

07:02 <Soul_keeper> hawmps, why are you guys always saying spork ?

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07:09 <hawmps> those are addresses of hackers etc to block/kill

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07:21 <Soul_keeper> block on your router ?

07:21 <Soul_keeper> i thought you might have some kinda boinc project for attacking spammers ...

07:23 <hawmps> simple iptables entries..

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07:34 <Soul_keeper> no distributed denial of service that targets the "problem people"  ?  :)

07:39 <CoderForLife> thx for the spork/plink list hawmps

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07:45 <CoderForLife> atoi() could fail if : 1) the string being converted doesn't look like an integer, such as decimal points, leading or trailing spaces, etc or 2) the destination - probably a 4-byte integer, is not big enough to hold the number represented by the string you're converting, Soul_keeper

07:46 <CoderForLife> that's off the top of my head

07:46 <CoderForLife> back to w@#% stuff

07:46 <Soul_keeper> i solved the issue, it was failing on every other calculation of the same string,  ended up having something to do with not having a large enough bullshit to put it in :)

07:46 <wdsmia> asks Soul_keeper to please watch his or her language Thanks, your friendly channel op.

07:49 <PovAdct_w> <Soul_keeper> no distributed denial of service that targets the "problem people"  ?  :)

07:49 <PovAdct_w> that would uselessly overload the intertubes

07:49 <Soul_keeper> heh

07:49 <PovAdct_w> and note many of those IPs are from Windows lemmings with malware on their machines, not from malicious people

07:50 <Soul_keeper> yeah

07:50 <PovAdct_w> I still look forward to having enough knowledge to know how to exploit a buffer overflow

07:50 <Soul_keeper> i've spent time in the logs, tracking down people out of curiousity in the best,   end up all being shell account places, or church computers and such

07:51 <Soul_keeper> that kinda stuff is all application specific PovAdct_w

07:51 <PovAdct_w> I know

07:51 <Soul_keeper> can't just "know" for them all

07:52 <PovAdct_w> well but I don't yet know how it works in general

07:52 <Soul_keeper> having the knowledge to not be exploited is more fun :)

07:52 <PovAdct_w> of course when you have an exploitable program you have to tweak your hacking attempt a lot until it works

07:53 <CoderForLife> oh, so atoi() wasn't failing - OK

07:53 <Soul_keeper> well say for example with ssh or something,   if everytime someone tryed to connect it would ask and  login/pass  then check to see if they are valid ....   each time this happens a small amount of memory is used.  could theoretically crash the system if there is no stop/pause implemented

07:54 <Soul_keeper> not sure if that's what you are talking about tho

07:54 <Soul_keeper> CoderForLife, yeah it just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time i guess

07:54 <PovAdct_w> uh no

07:54 <PovAdct_w> that would be a memory leak, if the ssh server would never free the memory it uses to check for login

07:55 <Soul_keeper> even if it did free it still wouldn't help

07:55 <PovAdct_w> I'm talking about when you have a 100-byte buffer and the app doesn't check for the limit when copying data into it, and you manage to make it copy 200 bytes into it

07:55 <Soul_keeper> could write a small program to make 1000000 connections to the same host from your pc

07:56 <Soul_keeper> essentially instantly crash it

07:56 <PovAdct_w> you overwrite other stuff, including the return address, so (if you make your shellcode right) when the function ends, it runs your malicious code instead of jumping back to the caller

07:56 <Soul_keeper> ahhh

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07:56 <Soul_keeper> well i'd assume that would be a very poorly written program

07:57 <Soul_keeper> maybe some late night typos :)

07:57 <PovAdct_w> char foo[200]; strcpy(foo, argv[1]);

07:57 <PovAdct_w> that code is vulnerable

07:57 <PovAdct_w> if you pass a command line argument with more than 200 characters, you overflow the buffer

07:57 <Soul_keeper> yeah my code is very vulnerable :)

07:58 <PovAdct_w> not that hard to make *that* mistake

07:58 <Soul_keeper> i'll probably have to spend way too much time cleaning it up

07:58 <PovAdct_w> big companies do it all the time :P

07:58 <Soul_keeper> well with cgi apps such an exploit could be easy,   http://whatever.com/whatever.cgi=somevar

07:59 <Romulus> Title: airline tickets cell phone deals at whatever.com (at whatever.com)

07:59 <PovAdct_w> exactly

08:00 <Soul_keeper> either you'd have to find it in the code yourself or hear about it being exploited, then go searching for a victim ...

08:00 <PovAdct_w> http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2009-0569

08:00 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/clff5o> (at cve.mitre.org)

08:00 <Soul_keeper> ok it's 5am now, i guess that means it's time to get hyped up on coffee till my chest hurts

08:01 <PovAdct_w> http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvekey.cgi?keyword=buffer+overflow+execute+code there you go .)

08:01 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/clmotg> (at cve.mitre.org)

08:01 <PovAdct_w> :)

08:02 <PovAdct_w> there have been such bugs in stuff like libpng, so that someone could make a .png image that would run code on your machine if any program tried to load it

08:03 <Soul_keeper> cool

08:03 <Soul_keeper> that's a good way to punish a nosey admin

08:03 <Soul_keeper> look at my homedir will ya !

08:04 <CoderForLife> OK - I'm really away now - need to write up some comments on a vendor LDAP implementation

08:04 <CoderForLife> laterz

08:05 <PovAdct_w> easier to "hey look at this funny pic" :P

08:05 <PovAdct_w> or put it as your msn image and all your contacts are instantly hacked, as their clients try to display the image

08:05 <PovAdct_w> (of course, that bug has been long fixed)

08:10 <Soul_keeper> that exploit i mentioned about ssh wasn't actually ssh, but it did happen last year to openssl or something,  can't remember what it was

08:11 <Soul_keeper> apparently it happened to debian machines, because the maintainers like to "customize" projects to their liking

08:11 <Soul_keeper> they obviousely didn't know what they had edited

08:11 <Soul_keeper> so out came an official debian package

08:12 <PovAdct_w> denial of service by connecting a lot?

08:12 <Soul_keeper> kinda

08:12 <Soul_keeper> forget the specifics

08:13 <Soul_keeper> it basically came down to, it must much less resources for the attacker to keep connecting   than the host

08:13 <Soul_keeper> used*

08:14 <Soul_keeper> you initiate a login/pass prompt  it sends one, you immediately ignore it and get another

08:15 * Soul_keeper goes back to his code

08:15 <Soul_keeper> i'm so close ....

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09:25 <wdsmia_w> &wx 50319

09:25 <Romulus> wdsmia_w: Temperature: 15.3F / -9.3C | Humidity: 81% | Pressure: 30.63in / 1037.1hPa (Steady) | Conditions: Partly Cloudy | Wind Direction: NNE | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Today - Sunny. High in the mid 30s. Southeast wind 5 to 15 mph.; Tonight - Partly cloudy. Not as cold. Low in the mid 20s. Southeast wind 10 to 15 mph.; Tuesday - Partly sunny. Not as cool. High in the mid 40s. South wind (1 more message)

09:25 <wdsmia_w> &more

09:25 <Romulus> wdsmia_w: 10 to 15 mph.;

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11:23 <vostorga> Well, the --set_proxy_settings argument to boinccmd doesnt work for me

11:23 <vostorga> AFAIK it takes 9 arguments, but no success at all

11:24 <vostorga> :/

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12:15 <PovAdct_w> &boincerr -190

12:15 <Romulus> PovAdct_w: bad major version

12:15 <MTughan> w00t, GPU app works!

12:18 <ELGono> http://www.imagevat.com/uploads/BenneC20090221_low.jpg

12:18 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/aghvsm> (at www.imagevat.com)

12:20 <MTughan> Heh, I noticed graphics effects took longer to render there... :P

12:22 <MTughan> ELGono: rofl, nice image.

12:22 <ELGono> :)

12:23 <ELGono> ah stimmt, sie war ja gut eingepackt

12:23 <ELGono> damn wrong window

12:23 <MTughan> lol

12:27 <MTughan> Hmm, what is the tag in cc_config to "set" the number of CPUs? I tried n_cpus, said it didn't recognize the tag.

12:28 <PovAdct_w> don't?

12:28 <MTughan> Ah, BOINC finally loaded... ncpus.

12:29 <MTughan> BOINC site*

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12:38 <ELGono> Well

12:38 <ELGono> are u ready for one of the best jokes i heard in long time?

12:38 <PovAdct_w> no

12:38 <vostorga> lol

12:38 <ELGono> pov, you will be laughing for sure ;)

12:38 <ELGono> A woman in a hot-air balloon lost orientation. She goes more deeply and sights a man at the ground. She continues to drop and calls: " Hey You, can you help me? I promised a friend to meet him one hour ago; and I do not know where I am." The man at the ground answers: " You are in a hot-air balloon in approximately 10 m height above ground. You are on that 49. Degree, 28 Minutes and 11 seconds northern latitude and 8 degrees, 28 minutes and 58 Seconds

12:39 <ELGono> "You must be engineer" , says Balloon woman driver. "I am" , the man answers. " How did you know that? " "Well" , the balloon woman driver says, "everything that you said to me, is technically correct, but i don't know what to do with that informations, i still don't hava any clue, where i am. Openly said, you were not a large assistance. Infact, you just delayed my journey."

12:39 <ELGono> The man answers: " You must be in the management." " Yes" , the balloon woman driver answers " but how did  you know that? " " Well" , the man says, " You know neither where you are, nor where you drive. You're in your current position due a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise, but you don't have any idea how to achieve that and expect from people under you that they solve your problems. Fact is, that you are now in the same situation like be

12:39 <ELGono> rangely enough I got guilted out! "

12:40 <PovAdct_w> there's a piece missing

12:40 <vostorga> :/

12:40 <vostorga> that sounds like talking with the boss

12:41 <Tank_Master> agreed

12:41 <PovAdct_w> the same situation like b  rangely enough I got guilted out! "

12:41 <ELGono> well it sounds like in german

12:41 <ELGono> just translated it for you

12:41 <PovAdct_w> I mean I think your message got cut

12:42 <ELGono> Fact is, that you are now in the same situation like before our meeting, but strangely enough I got guilted out! "

12:43 <Tank_Master> :)

12:43 <Tank_Master> makes more cents

12:43 <vostorga> xD

12:46 <ELGono> hope it did not cut out more

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13:27 <umc> hey guys... I installed boinc-client and started the service, and then installed kboincmgr

13:27 <umc> but that asks me name and port of the client

13:27 <umc> what exactly does it need there ?

13:34 <ELGono> client: ip of host or "localhost" if using same maschine

13:34 <ELGono> and port is iirc 31416

13:45 <umc> and for that GUI RPC Authorisation does it need anything ?

13:46 <umc> also, when I started the daemon, I got: The BOINC client requires initialization (no projects attached).[WARNING]

13:47 <umc> but then it started

13:47 <umc> so that first initialization can be set up from kboincmgr once it connects ?

13:47 <ELGono> authorisation key you'll find in file "gui_rpc_auth.cfg" in boinc folder

13:47 <umc> but, using localhost and port still doesn't work... maybe because that GUI RPC Authorisation

13:48 <umc> k. thanks. I'll look for it and give it another try

13:48 <ELGono> you may start boinc also with a parameter

13:48 <ELGono> start boinc with  --allow_remote_gui_rpc

13:49 <ELGono> otherwise it won't let any clients connect

13:49 <ELGono> if done so, it also should create gui_rpc_auth.cfg file, if it's not there already

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13:50 <umc> it created one in ~/Documents

13:55 <umc> I'm gonna try with boinc-manager, like it says on the site

13:56 <umc> but it says it needs to be started in the same folder as the client... but if the client is started automatically as a service, what would that folder be ?

13:56 <DarKnesS_WolF> guys any decent paper about middlewares ?

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14:09 <umc> wooo... finaly figured it out

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14:13 <ELGono> umc it works?

14:14 <umc> yes, I'm setting the account now

14:14 <ELGono> dudes: my last project http://matrix.fem.tu-ilmenau.de/~elgono/pg/?Qwd=./unzap&Qiv=thumbs&Qis=M

14:14 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/cvkhhr> (at matrix.fem.tu-ilmenau.de)

14:14 <umc> this was really helpfull: http://www.spy-hill.com/~myers/help/boinc/unix.html

14:14 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/aaopk3> (at www.spy-hill.com)

14:15 <umc> what exactly is that ELGono ?

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14:16 <ELGono> hehe it's a tv-b-gone .... a remote control with just one button .... pushing it sends out 40.000 infrared power-off codes for almost any tv known

14:16 <umc> I'm not sure I get it... what happens with the tv when you send those codes ?

14:17 <MTughan> I've seen those on ThinkGeek...

14:17 <ELGono> it turns off

14:17 <ELGono> phun in electronic markets with big TV-walls ... but also usefull to get rid of video-advertisments or TV in restaurants

14:18 <umc> nice one...

14:19 <umc> was it hard to make ?

14:19 <ELGono> not if you can solder

14:19 <ELGono> you also can buy these ready to use without need to solder

14:20 <MTughan> umc: http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/electronic/755e/

14:20 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/bzbnh> (at www.thinkgeek.com)

14:23 <umc> I can have a go at soldering in my fathers workshop. he has plenty of components and soldering equip

14:24 <hawmps> http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/02/23/article-1153004-03A229E2000005DC-241_634x667.jpg

14:24 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/cwee6e> (at i.dailymail.co.uk)

14:24 <hawmps> http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/02/23/article-1153004-03A22A08000005DC-29_634x421.jpg

14:24 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/bcky4c> (at i.dailymail.co.uk)

14:26 <umc> well... boinc all good to go. but I don't see it doing any work yet... maybe it's waiting for idle cpu

14:27 <umc> hm...

14:27 <umc> Mon 23 Feb 2009 09:22:08 PM EET|SETI@home|Scheduler request succeeded: got 0 new tasks

14:27 <umc> Mon 23 Feb 2009 09:22:08 PM EET|SETI@home|Message from server: platform 'i586-mandriva-linux-gnu' not found

14:27 <umc> maybe it doesn't like mandriva

14:28 <vostorga> your platform is incorrect

14:29 <umc> so what can I do to make it right ?

14:29 <umc> can't it automatically detect that ?

14:29 <vostorga> it should say something like i686-pc-linux-gnu

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14:30 <umc> is that a value that I can set somewhere ?

14:32 <umc> vostorga: any ideeas on where I could set the correct version ?

14:35 <vostorga> umc, how did you installed seti?

14:35 <vostorga> are you using a recent client?

14:36 <umc> I'm using mandriva, and I did urpmi boinc-client and boinc-manager

14:36 <umc> so it got the latest packages they had

14:36 <umc> version 5.10.45 for the manager

14:40 <vostorga> you must install version 6

14:41 <vostorga> I am not sure it version 5 still works fine

14:44 <umc> hmm... that's what they had in the repositories...

14:44 <umc> maybe I'll try to install it manually

14:53 <PovAddict> mandriva package is *still* broken in that way?

14:53 <PovAddict> note to self, never try that distro

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15:04 <umc> PovAddict: I'm really satisfied with it

15:05 <umc> now I have decided to try kde4.2 also, it's really great

15:05 <umc> does everything I want it too

15:05 <PovAddict> it has been quite a long time since I was satisfied with any software, especially desktop environments

15:05 <umc> you can always install rpms from somewhere else, you don't need to be limited by the repositories

15:05 <PovAddict> I use KDE 3.5; after trying KDE 4.1 and GNOME whatever-version-ubuntu-has, I concluded all three suck

15:06 <umc> I used kde 3.5 since forever, until this past weekend

15:06 <ELGono> well kde 4.2 is a big performance step from 4.1

15:06 <umc> I only tried 4.1 with a live cd... it sucked

15:06 <MTughan_> I've always preferred GNOME on my Linux machines, but I agree it is lacking.

15:06 <umc> yes, kde 4.2 is really really good compared to 4.x series

15:06 <ELGono> i never liked kde ... but 4.2 has my respect

15:07 <MTughan_> umc: KDE 4.2 is covered by 4.x. :P

15:07 <MTughan_> You mean it's really really good compared to 4.0 and 4.1.

15:07 <umc> I thought someone might pick on that :D

15:07 <umc> yeah... :)

15:09 <ELGono> installed a fedora at friends ...already using kde 4.2 ... really was impressed

15:09 <MTughan_> Fedora 10?

15:09 <ELGono> yep

15:09 <MTughan_> I have a F10 VM, but using the default GNOME. I can always try KDE 4.2 though.

15:09 <umc> when mandriva releases 2009.1 in april, I'll reinstall also, it comes with kde4.2. now I had to add it from another repository... big mess with updates... but it works

15:10 <MTughan_> I guess Ubuntu 9.04 will have KDE 4.2 as well?

15:10 <ELGono> might be ...

15:10 <PovAddict> it already has it :)

15:10 <ELGono> just took fresh fedora this weekend

15:11 <ELGono> dunno the exact release

15:11 <MTughan_> Development or stable?

15:11 <ELGono> iirc stable

15:11 <MTughan_> Fedora 10 is the latest stable, 11 is the dev.

15:13 <ELGono> hmm think it was dev

15:13 <ELGono> (kde-4.2-rc1) for F-10 is still marked as testing at kde

15:13 <MTughan_> Yeah, Fedora 11 is in alpha now.

15:14 <PovAddict> Fedora 10 was the first distro to provide KDE 4.x IIRC

15:14 *** Aruzo has quit IRC

15:15 <ELGono> cannot tell for sure wich distro i choose dev or stable ... was friends decision ... i just did all the configuring, not that much install

15:15 <ELGono> but anyhow, i like 4.2 ;) ...

15:16 <umc> here here

15:16 <umc> did you also enable the eye candy ? :)

15:16 <MTughan_> I think that's "hear hear", but I won't go into that...

15:16 <umc> yeah... I'm not a native english speaker... sorry for the typos :)

15:16 <MTughan_> np

15:17 <MTughan_> I don't know that I've ever figured that one out either.

15:18 <umc> well... back to my little site project... :)

15:18 <umc> have a nice evening gentlemen

15:19 <MTughan_> Night.

15:19 *** umc has left #boinc

15:26 <ELGono> just looked up in the logs ... the whole joke went fubar

15:26 <ELGono> http://matrix.fem.tu-ilmenau.de/~elgono/management-engl.txt

15:26 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/bb5mbx> (at matrix.fem.tu-ilmenau.de)

15:27 <MTughan_> Most of it came through.

15:27 <ELGono> but now it's better for telling to others ;)

15:28 <MTughan_> Heh.

15:33 <PovAddict> I saw a similar one

15:33 <PovAddict> a man was flying an airplane, and he got into some thick fog

15:34 <PovAddict> and had no idea where he was

15:34 <PovAddict> he sees someone looking out of the window of a building

15:34 <PovAddict> and asks him "can you tell me where I am?"

15:34 <PovAddict> the man on the window says "you're in a plane"

15:35 <PovAddict> the pilot then proceeds to make quite a good landing on the airport nearby

15:35 <PovAddict> how did that happen?

15:35 <MTughan_> He saw someone looking out of the window, which means he had flown out of the fog.

15:35 <PovAddict> the man on the building gave him completely correct but completely useless information

15:36 <PovAddict> so he realized that was Microsoft tech support building, and that made him know where he was and helped him find the airport

15:36 <ELGono> ;) same structure

15:38 <MTughan_> lol

15:42 <Soul_keeper> Ha !  atof()    much better than  atoi()     :)

15:42 <MTughan_> In speed?

15:42 <PovAddict> unlikely

15:43 <MTughan_> I'm wondering why, because floats aren't exact, which integers are.

15:48 <xcamel> 'lo

15:49 <Soul_keeper> no in not giving me arbitrary values causing me to scratch my head

15:49 <Soul_keeper> aoi will mess up if used to write to a double/float

15:50 <MTughan_> If atoi is giving wrong values, either you're passing the wrong strings, or the implementation is wrong.

15:50 <MTughan_> atoi: String to int

15:50 <MTughan_> atof: string to float

15:50 <PovAddict> does your number have any decimals?

15:51 <ELGono> lol just fed google earth with coords from that joke ... a real adress in germany ;)

15:51 <ELGono> windeckstrasse

15:51 <MTughan_> Heh, nice.

15:51 <Soul_keeper> numbers were just to big

15:52 <MTughan_> Yes, doubles can hold a bigger range than 32-bit ints.

15:52 <Soul_keeper> the atoi function must use ints for it's math, so it can't store too big of numbers

15:52 <MTughan_> I think bigger than 64-bit ints too.

15:52 <PovAddict> ah, then you're using floats and losing the least significant digits

15:52 <PovAddict> MTughan: a double is 64-bit, so it can't have more

15:52 <MTughan_> 64 or 128?

15:53 <xcamel> that didn't translate well..

15:53 <PovAddict> single precision is 32-bit

15:53 <PovAddict> float: 1 sign bit, 8 bits for exponent, 23 bits for mantissa

15:53 <PovAddict> double: 1 sign bit, 11 bits for exponent, 52 bits for mantissa

15:54 <MTughan_> I get 8 bytes for double... Yeah, 64-bits.

15:54 <MTughan_> I just printed out sizeof(double) and sizeof(float). 8 and 4 respectively.

15:54 <PovAddict> hmm IEEE 754-2008 defines a 128-bit format

15:55 <MTughan_> Anyway, class if over... Back in 10 minutes or so.

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16:04 <MTughan> 'lo zombie67

16:04 <zombie67> Hi MT!

16:05 <MTughan> Got the sources from yoyo, but I haven't built them all yet.

16:05 <Soul_keeper> just hit 2M on boinc :)

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16:09 <MTughan> Soul_keeper: Congrats!

16:09 <xcamel> indeed.

16:10 <Soul_keeper> :)

16:11 <MTughan> PovAddict: Is there any way in an app_info to mark an app as non-CPU-intensive?

16:11 <PovAddict> apps can't be non-cpu-intensive

16:11 <PovAddict> projects are

16:11 <MTughan> Ah...

16:12 <MTughan> I was thinking if I could make the MW GPU app non-CPU-intensive, I can get rid of the cc_config.

16:16 <MTughan> Apparently, bash 4.0 has been released.

16:17 <PovAddict> http://brownthatbanana.typepad.com/.a/6a00e39337cb1e883401116890975f970c-800wi

16:17 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/czxv6p> (at brownthatbanana.typepad.com)

16:17 <PovAddict> wait, what?

16:18 <MTughan> "wait, what?" About the image, or bash?

16:18 <PovAddict> image

16:18 <MTughan> I'm agreeing with you...

16:21 <zombie67> Thanks MT!

16:21 <ELGono> lol 2 pic

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16:22 <vostorga> bash 4? wtf

16:23 <PovAddict> GNU bash, version 3.2.39(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)

16:24 <MTughan> OS X ships with "GNU bash, version 3.2.17(1)-release (i386-apple-darwin9.0)"

16:24 <MTughan> Copyright 2005 FSF... Seems there hasn't been a whole lot of development since then... xD

16:25 <PovAddict> mine says 2007

16:25 <MTughan> 2 years to go from .17 to .39.

16:26 <ELGono> http://www.mail-archive.com/cygwin@cygwin.com/msg94439.html

16:26 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/dk2vj7> (at www.mail-archive.com)

16:26 <vostorga> app-shells/bash-3.2_p39

16:26 <PovAddict> hey how many years to go from 10.4 to 10.5? ;)

16:26 <MTughan> vostorga: Try "bash --version"

16:26 <PovAddict> you know what I mean

16:26 <MTughan> :P

16:27 <vostorga> GNU bash, version 3.2.39(1)-release (i686-pc-linux-gnu)

16:27 <vostorga> Copyright (C) 2007 Free Software Foundation, Inc.

16:27 <MTughan> So the same version as Pov.

16:27 <ELGono> GNU bash, version 3.1.16(1)-release (mips-sgi-irix6.5)

16:27 <ELGono> Copyright (C) 2005 Free Software Foundation, Inc.

16:27 <MTughan> lol, you're running IRIX?

16:27 <ELGono> sure ;)

16:28 <PovAddict> http://www.explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Matt/omnipotent-beings-correcting-their-mistakes.png

16:28 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/2xu2pd> (at www.explosm.net)

16:28 <ELGono> one box with 5.2 diskless and a server with 6.5.28

16:29 <vostorga> good hardware mipsel

16:29 <ELGono> indeed ... my oldest SGI running since 1991 24/7

16:29 <vostorga> but Irix has reached the EOL

16:30 <vostorga> :/

16:30 <ELGono> yea ... i'm still loving it

16:31 <ELGono> we took a sgi power challange L out of serverroom last month :(

16:32 <ELGono> server with build in wheels and some 150kg fat

16:32 <PovAddict> http://3.media.collegehumor.com/collegehumor/ch6/3/f/collegehumor.e1d55103cbfa48e51dac46cf2508ce21.jpg

16:32 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/5heqky> (at 3.media.collegehumor.com)

16:33 <vostorga> I want to buy one of those sgi boxes to make some tests with Linux

16:33 <vostorga> but, need to save some money....

16:34 <ELGono> box like this

16:35 <ELGono> we just had more RAM and disc space

16:35 <ELGono> http://www.man.poznan.pl/resources/supercomputers/elder/index.html

16:35 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/cl3vh8> (at www.man.poznan.pl)

16:36 <MTughan> lol, that's an old computer...

16:36 <ELGono> but we found a nice dry place with network for it ;)

16:36 <MTughan> What does it do?

16:36 <ELGono> for it's time it was a real big number cruncher ...

16:37 <ELGono> back in the days where a Pentium had 100 MHz ... that beast had four 195Mhz 64 processors with 4MB L2 each

16:37 <MTughan> Yeah.

16:37 <ELGono> 64bit

16:37 <ELGono> server as mailserver for out community last 10 years

16:37 <vostorga> well, I mean a SGI Octane

16:38 <MTughan> But now, with quad-cores quickly becoming standard, and at speeds greater than 3GHz, it looks tiny.

16:38 <ELGono> octane is really nice, too

16:38 <ELGono> but hadle with care, cause the system backbone is made of fibre optics ;)

16:38 <MTughan> Although 4MB L2 is still fairly large. I think Intel's Yorkfields come with 12MB altogether, which equates to 3MB per core.

16:39 <ELGono> yea .. a dual or quad RISC still rockz

16:39 <MTughan> And with GPUs now breaking the 1TFLOP barrier... :P

16:40 <ELGono> with some up to date scsi discs that computer is still fast .... not in all terms of nowadays computers, but you would be surprised

16:40 <MTughan> ATI's 4870 and 4850 cards each come with 800 stream processors, which can handle single-precision, or 320 for double-precision IIRC.

16:41 <MTughan> Each are running at at least 500MHz.

16:41 <MTughan> And with a TDP of 120W or so... xD

16:41 <MTughan> Actually, must be higher... Either way, it's a lot of power.

16:42 <ELGono> there a worlds between it

16:42 <MTughan> For sure.

16:42 <MTughan> When was that machine released?

16:42 <ELGono> but as long as my 33MHz SGI runs, i let it run ;)

16:42 *** wdsmia_w has quit IRC

16:43 <ELGono> the indigo 1990

16:43 <ELGono> the challenge series 1993 or 1994

16:43 <ELGono> think 94

16:44 <MTughan> Yeah, that's a considerable amount of power for that time...

16:44 <ELGono> my indigo is back from 91 with full openGL 1.0 hardware support

16:46 <MTughan> 35 micrometer process... What is that, about 35000nm? And we're down to 45 and 40nm now... xD

16:47 <MTughan> Yeah, 35000nm.

16:50 <CoderForLife> home again

16:50 <MTughan> 'lo Don

16:50 <CoderForLife> heya Michael

16:51 <CoderForLife> stock market fall down go boom

16:51 <MTughan> How much down? I saw about -170 at lunchtime.

16:51 <CoderForLife> -250

16:51 <MTughan> Ouch.

16:52 <CoderForLife> we're eating leftovers tonight =)

16:53 <CoderForLife> my bank is floating at just above a buck a share

16:53 <MTughan> Wow... The SGI Challenge Rackmount enclosures weighed a max of 1200 lbs...

16:53 <MTughan> Also come with a 1900W PSU.

16:53 <MTughan> Big sucker.

16:53 <CoderForLife> wow

16:54 <MTughan> The "deskside" systems weigh a minimum of 195 lbs apparently. Still heavy for a computer.

16:57 *** yoyo[RKN] has quit IRC

16:58 <CoderForLife> din-din  bbiab

17:04 *** ChanServ sets mode: +ooo xcamel hawmps CoderForLife

17:07 <ELGono> MTughan : they were made of good american steel ;)

17:07 <ELGono> no wonder industries are going since plastic boxes took over market

17:09 <MTughan> They're much lighter. ;)

17:09 *** DerMeister has quit IRC

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17:17 *** MTughan_ has joined #boinc

17:21 *** ChanServ sets mode: -o CoderForLife

17:22 <CoderForLife> there - feeling like myself again

17:22 <ELGono> leftovers are great ;)

17:23 <CoderForLife> and cheap =)

17:23 <ELGono> just had some from heidis mother from weekend ;)

17:23 * CoderForLife eats some "leftover" Christmas candy

17:24 <ELGono> ;)

17:24 *** MTughan_ has quit IRC

17:29 <PovAddict> &ping

17:29 <Romulus> pong

17:29 <PovAddict> phew

17:30 <CoderForLife> phow

17:30 <PovAddict> mom said TV stopped working

17:31 <PovAddict> I have cablemodem so that meant internet would have stopped working as well

17:31 <PovAddict> fortunately it came back in a few seconds, before TCP timeouts, so I survived

17:31 <CoderForLife> phew

17:32 <PovAddict> unlike PPP (dialup)

17:32 *** zombie_67 has joined #boinc

17:32 <MTughan> Services out again...

17:32 <CoderForLife> ping-pong protocol =)

17:32 <PovAddict> where a split-second of disconnection means you lost it

17:32 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o CoderForLife

17:32 <MTughan> See?

17:33 <PovAddict> unplug ethernet for two seconds and plug back; TCP connections will remain alive

17:33 <CoderForLife> wtf

17:33 <CoderForLife> *why am I now god-like

17:33 <xcamel> 'lo

17:33 <CoderForLife> hello Jay

17:34 <xcamel> hi

17:34 *** ChanServ sets mode: -o CoderForLife

17:34 <MTughan> CoderForLife: Because services quit again, and when it came back on, it enforced the access permissions.

17:34 <CoderForLife> IRC isn't feeling well

17:34 <MTughan> Where you have auto-op.

17:34 *** zombie_67 has quit IRC

17:35 <CoderForLife> got my "refund" from the state today

17:36 <xcamel> your what?

17:36 <CoderForLife> ransom return

17:36 *** zombie67 has quit IRC

17:37 <CoderForLife> in this case, I'm glad Strickland is not the Governator

17:38 <CoderForLife> it's hard to deposit an IOU, but of course the bank doesn't have anything else in there, like money

17:49 *** F6F has joined #boinc

17:49 <F6F> hi

17:50 <F6F> any germans here?

17:50 <CoderForLife> hi F6F

17:50 <ELGono> at least one

17:50 <CoderForLife> heh

17:50 * CoderForLife points at ELGono

17:50 <F6F> k

17:50 <F6F> ich hab hier ein kleines problem

17:50 <F6F> mit boinc

17:50 <F6F> unter linux

17:50 <F6F> und zwar

17:51 <F6F> kann ich meine Rechner die sich im netzwerk befinden nicht zum boinc manager hinzugüfen

17:51 * CoderForLife sits back for the German lesson

17:51 <F6F> weder mit ip adresse noch über den hostname

17:51 * PovAddict notes DerMeister quit and yoyo isn't here

17:51 <ELGono> oki

17:51 * PovAddict goes back to some Code - unproductive day so far

17:52 <F6F> CoderForLife, ihave a problem connecting my boinc network clients with the boinc manager

17:52 <CoderForLife> a common problem

17:52 <xcamel> all too common

17:52 <F6F> well now is there a common solution?

17:52 <ELGono> hast du die boinc clients mit der option --allow_remote_gui_rpc gestartet?

17:52 <F6F> << linux

17:52 <F6F> ELGono, 0

17:52 <F6F> über /etc/init.d

17:52 <CoderForLife> that's step 1

17:53 <F6F> k

17:53 <F6F> can i edit this in the config?

17:53 <ELGono> fge die option ein, sonst kann kein manager connecten ...

17:53 <xcamel> und geboincenpoppen..

17:53 <F6F> or have i to edit the init script?

17:53 <ELGono> lol jay

17:53 <PovAddict> F6F: you want to connect remotely?

17:53 <F6F> 1

17:53 <F6F> ^^yes

17:53 <ELGono> yep pov

17:53 <PovAddict> F6F: did you already put a password in gui_rpc_auth.cfg?

17:54 <F6F> jep

17:54 <ELGono> same problem as umc had earlier this day

17:54 <F6F> mom mom

17:54 <xcamel> or remotely on the local machine?

17:54 <F6F> im @ step 1

17:54 <F6F> *G*

17:54 <ELGono> password setzen in der gui_rpc_auth.cfg = step2

17:54 <ELGono> die datei liegt im boinc verzeichnis

17:54 <CoderForLife> agreed on step 2

17:55 <F6F> ELGono, where to attach --allow_remote_gui_rpc?

17:55 <PovAddict> for manager on computer A to connect to client on computer B, you need a gui_rpc_auth.cfg file on computer B with the password; then on the manager on A you type that password

17:55 <PovAddict> you don't need --allow_remote_gui_rpc

17:55 *** DarKnesS_WolF has quit IRC

17:55 <F6F> well now

17:55 <PovAddict> you can put (also on computer B) a remote_hosts.cfg file with the IP address of computer A

17:55 <F6F> i hava a password in gui_rpc_auth.cfg but it dont work

17:55 <ELGono> cool pov ;)

17:56 <F6F> ELGono, where to attach --allow_remote_gui_rpc?

17:56 <PovAddict> F6F: you don't need it, you can use remote_hosts.cfg instead

17:56 <xcamel> für Manager auf Computer A, um eine Verbindung zum Client auf dem Rechner B, benötigen Sie einen gui_rpc_auth.cfg Datei auf Computer B mit dem Passwort, dann auf den Manager auf einem Passwort, dass Sie

17:56 <PovAddict> --allow_remote_gui_rpc allows access from all computers; might be bad for security (if you have a simple password :P)

17:56 <xcamel> that translator stinks.

17:56 <ELGono> not that bad jay

17:57 <ELGono> hast du es verstanden? ... das ist natrlich der besser, weil sichere weg

17:57 <ELGono> +e

17:57 <xcamel> not even a strong password...

17:59 <xcamel> F6F: Sind Sie vom boincmanager (Desktop) oder die Konsole-Version?

17:59 <F6F> xcamel, i solved the problem

17:59 <F6F> *G*

17:59 <F6F> by edit the config

18:00 <F6F> # Allow remote gui RPC yes or no

18:00 <F6F> ALLOW_REMOTE_RPC="yes"

18:00 <xcamel> sehr gut

18:00 <F6F> ^^ done

18:00 <ELGono> super ;)

18:00 <F6F> *G*

18:00 <ELGono> xcamel : you did really well ;)

18:00 <xcamel> allerdings.

18:00 <ELGono> lol

18:01 <xcamel> I remember a bit..

18:01 <CoderForLife> je parle francais

18:01 <CoderForLife> un tres peu

18:01 <xcamel> pas une boule de neige de la chance en enfer.

18:01 <MTughan> I speak computer. ;)

18:02 <CoderForLife> printf("I speak C also\n");

18:02 <ELGono> _ /x01A4

18:03 <CoderForLife> PovAddict does a bit of Spanish

18:03 <PovAddict> a bit yeah

18:03 <CoderForLife> heh

18:03 <PovAddict> just my native language, not much

18:04 <CoderForLife> same here - 8085 assembly language

18:04 <xcamel> camper.. 6809 here..

18:05 <ELGono> hehe noone speakz HEX

18:06 <ELGono> the wikipedia link to /x01A4 has been deleted

18:06 <ELGono> Looks like an esoteric C programming language reference to something in culture

18:06 <xcamel> however id10t errors have not.

18:06 <ELGono> hehe looks like they did not get it ;)

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18:10 <CoderForLife> I wrote 6502 code for EPROM to go on a card in the Apple ][

18:10 <CoderForLife> but I liked 8085 better

18:12 <ELGono> just diggin into TTL

18:12 <jasong> Excuse me, but how do you turn the GUI on and off in Linux?  I've heard that crunching can increase by about 5 or 10% if the GUI is temporarily disabled

18:12 <ELGono> found a infrared laser diode at friends tool-box

18:12 <ELGono> 780nm 55mW

18:12 <CoderForLife> I did TTL - CMOS was just coming along

18:12 <ELGono> wich i want to use for my tv-b-gone

18:12 <jasong> (or permanently for that matter, for the anal-retentive ;) )

18:13 <ELGono> http://matrix.fem.tu-ilmenau.de/~elgono/pg/?Qwd=./unzap&Qif=20090223_Gono_1071.JPG&Qiv=thumbs&Qis=M

18:13 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/dcjlk7> (at matrix.fem.tu-ilmenau.de)

18:13 <PovAddict> jasong: what desktop environment are you using?

18:13 <CoderForLife> a key question...

18:13 <jasong> Fedora 10

18:13 <MTughan> GNOME or KDE?

18:13 *** Aeternus has joined #boinc

18:14 <ELGono> deja vu :)

18:14 <jasong> Never figured that out, I always just use what I'm given

18:14 <PovAddict> ...

18:14 <MTughan> GNOME then.

18:14 <jasong> sorry :(

18:14 <MTughan> And actually, you can switch into CLI only by entering "/sbin/init 3" in a console with root permissions.

18:14 <jasong> and how do I switch back?  What's the number for that?

18:15 <MTughan> 5.

18:15 <jasong> thanks, I'll write it down

18:22 <CoderForLife> bbiab

18:25 *** F6F has quit IRC

18:29 <xcamel> vuja de..

18:29 <xcamel> hmm.. I have yosemite backing up to my external terrabook...

18:29 <xcamel> not fast.. but it's working..

18:43 <CoderForLife> that's progress

18:44 <xcamel> I need to set the 'virtual tapes' to 4gb instead of i

18:45 <xcamel> 1 gb

18:45 <CoderForLife> mm-hmm

18:50 <xcamel> it seems to create a 'virtual library'

18:51 <CoderForLife> as long as it only costs virtual money, you have nothing to lose

18:51 <xcamel> replacing that tape drive will cost real money

18:54 <CoderForLife> ah - tread carefully - cash is king these days

18:54 <xcamel> ut-oh..

18:54 <xcamel> Bubonic MIce missing from Jersey Lab

18:55 <xcamel> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,489595,00.html

18:55 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/c5y8ec> (at www.foxnews.com)

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19:12 <CoderForLife> someday something is going to get loose from one of these places, like the Spanish flu (no offense, Pov)

19:13 <ELGono> the 3rd case like that this year in us

19:14 <ELGono> oki 2nd ... that one was from 7.2.

19:17 <ELGono> after missing mice it was missing nerve gas http://www.deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705283634,00.html

19:17 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/dhw9ve> (at www.deseretnews.com)

19:20 * KathrynM hates ginormous pills

19:21 * CoderForLife nods vigorously

19:22 <KathrynM> chewable vitimins just taste nasty so I swallow them whole

19:22 <CoderForLife> I'm useless tonight

19:22 <PovAddict> dad has his new mac bbl

19:22 <xcamel> what was the url of those kitty photos?

19:23 * CoderForLife shakes his Coding magic wand

19:23 <xcamel> aka: kitty porn

19:23 <KathrynM> http://picasaweb.google.com/ksmarkspsych/Kitten#

19:23 <CoderForLife> low batteries, I guess

19:23 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/am8yb8> (at picasaweb.google.com)

19:23 <PovAddict> ew

19:23 <KathrynM> vet thinks she's an Angora

19:23 <PovAddict> and wikipedia agrees

19:23 <KathrynM> I have to say after reading up, I agree

19:23 <KathrynM> She may be part dog too.

19:24 <PovAddict> lol

19:24 * CoderForLife rolls up the keyboard

19:24 <KathrynM> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angora_cat

19:24 <Romulus> Title: Turkish Angora - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)

19:24 <CoderForLife> gn all

19:24 <xcamel> thanks

19:24 <ELGono> nn don

19:25 <KathrynM> nn fair CoderForLife

19:26 <xcamel> laaaaaaaters cfl

19:27 <PovAddict> dad's booting his new MacBook <3

19:27 * KathrynM is jealous

19:27 <xcamel> spouse thinks kitty is very cute.

19:27 <KathrynM> :)

19:27 <KathrynM> vet says she's between 2 and 3 months

19:27 <xcamel> spouse is still in great pain

19:27 <KathrynM> :(

19:28 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o CoderForLife

19:28 <xcamel> first day in europe, she slipped and fell on a marble floor

19:29 <xcamel> no break but one hell of a bruised hip

19:30 *** zombie67 has joined #boinc

19:44 <xcamel> 'lo zombie

19:46 <zombie67> yo

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19:53 <PovAddict> "warning: you're about to run software update but the Mac is not connected to AC power"

19:54 <PovAddict> now that's being helpful

19:54 <PovAddict> warning, you may run out of batteries in the middle of the update and make a mess :P

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19:59 <MTughan> PovAddict: What kind of MacBook? Standard or Pro?

20:00 <MTughan> It'll say just below the display.

20:00 <PovAddict> standard

20:01 <MTughan> Illuminated keyboard?

20:01 <PovAddict> nope (as far as I can see)

20:01 <MTughan> Then you have the exact same model as I do. :D

20:01 <PovAddict> 4GB RAM, and faster RAM than on this desktop computer <.<

20:01 <MTughan> That's upgraded then... I only have 2GB.

20:01 <MTughan> It's DDR3-1066.

20:01 <PovAddict> I haven't seen a Windows installation in quite a while

20:02 <PovAddict> so I can't compare

20:02 <KathrynM> Windows?  What's that

20:02 <PovAddict> but damn, Mac has a *great* OOBE

20:02 <MTughan> OOBE?

20:02 <KathrynM> Oh, that virus infested thing they use at work.

20:02 <PovAddict> KathrynM: I mean I haven't seen the Windows OS installer in quite a while

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20:03 <MTughan> 'lo Jay

20:03 <PovAddict> the first thing this mac showed when turned on

20:04 <KathrynM> off to w&#%

20:04 <KathrynM> although it's an easy morning.  Just graduations

20:04 <PovAddict> was a video, flying around in a spaceish image (like the default wallpaper), stumbling upon signs saying Welcome written in two dozen languages

20:04 <MTughan> Ah, the Out-Of-Box Experience according to Google and Wikipedia...

20:04 <MTughan> Yep, after which you set up the admin account and some other data.

20:06 *** xcamel sets mode: -o xcamel

20:10 <zombie67> MT, I am considering GPU crunching for MW

20:11 <MTughan> Just got it working today on my machine.

20:11 <zombie67> but I don't know all the ATI stuff

20:11 *** xcamel has quit IRC

20:11 <MTughan> Like what?

20:11 <zombie67> what is the speed difference 3800 vs. 4800?

20:12 <MTughan> 320 shader processors vs 800.

20:12 <zombie67> so 4800 is the way to go then?

20:12 <MTughan> Most definitely.

20:12 <zombie67> How does that compare to a 1950 XTX?

20:13 <MTughan> Can't run the MW at all.

20:13 <MTughan> Note that most Nvidia cards can't run any CUDA app for MW either, because it uses double-precision.

20:13 <zombie67> is a 4800 more powerful (outside of crunching) than a 1950 xtx?

20:13 <MTughan> The author of the app says that only the GT200 chips, the GTX cards, could run a CUDA application for MW.

20:13 <MTughan> Yes, it is.

20:14 <zombie67> I have a cuda 280

20:14 <zombie67> is there a cuda app for MW?

20:14 <MTughan> Not yet, but apparently the admin has an undergraduate working on it.

20:15 <zombie67> okay, does the 4800 require a PCI-e slot?

20:15 <zombie67> are there any for lesser slots/

20:15 <zombie67> ?

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20:15 <MTughan> But the author, Cluster Physik, says that even a GTX 285 would run much slower than a 4870. Could be that he just wants to promote the ATI version too, but I'm just saying. :P

20:15 *** xcamel sets mode: -o xcamel

20:16 <MTughan> No, it requires a PCIe slot. The 38xx cards had AGP versions, but I have not seen an AGP version of the 48xx cards.

20:16 <MTughan> And PCI is totally out of the question.

20:16 <zombie67> okay, next round of Qs:

20:16 <zombie67> I see 4830-4870

20:16 <MTughan> At least the 4850 and the 4870 can run it, and I would think the 4830 can as well.

20:17 <zombie67> is there much of a performance difference between the grades?

20:17 <MTughan> However, if you're willing to wait, there's a 4970 that should be coming out before too long.

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20:18 <MTughan> The 4870 is about 20% faster than the 4850 because of the difference between the shader clocks. Apparently GDDR5 vs GDDR3 doesn't make a difference.

20:18 <zombie67> okay, and what will be different with the 4900 series?

20:18 <MTughan> From what I can tell, it's just a "superclocked" version of the 4870.

20:18 <zombie67> okay...read superpriced

20:19 <MTughan> More than likely, but just saying.

20:19 <zombie67> I see there are "X2" versions of the 4850 and 4870...?

20:19 <MTughan> And the MW app can't use both cores.

20:19 <zombie67> what is X2?

20:19 <MTughan> Just like BOINC can't take advantage of SLI, it can't take advantage of Crossfire either.

20:20 <MTughan> A 4870X2 has two RV770 (or 4870) cores on the PCB, like the GF 9800GX2 or the GTX 295.

20:20 <zombie67> Ah...so wasted cost and components

20:21 <MTughan> 4970 vs 4870: 950MHz compared to 750MHz for the shader clocks.

20:21 <MTughan> Yeah, an X2 is a waste of money and power for BOINC.

20:21 <zombie67> Hmm...that's significant

20:22 <zombie67> okay, what is the power consumption like? for a 4870 vs a GTX 280?

20:22 <MTughan> Looks like the 4970 will be released around April.

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20:22 <zombie67> because let me tell you, the GTX 280 sucks it HARD

20:23 <wdsmia> zombie67 dont go there... step away from the light

20:23 <zombie67> don't go where?

20:23 <wdsmia> ATI i mean

20:23 <zombie67> ah

20:24 <MTughan> All I can quote are the TDP numbers. The GTX 280 is listed at 236W, the 4870 at 150W.

20:24 <wdsmia> at least till i catch up :-)

20:24 <zombie67> I am a bit concerned that most projects seem to be pro cuda, and not ATI

20:24 <MTughan> Because BOINC has support for CUDA, not Stream SDK.

20:24 <zombie67> MT:  that is good news.  almost half

20:24 <zombie67> still, I am only 50k away from my 1M goal in MW.

20:24 <MTughan> Advertised GFLOP is 1200, or 1.2TFLOPs.

20:24 <zombie67> I could be there in a few days with only CPU

20:25 <ELGono> because cuda just rocks

20:25 <zombie67> What kind of daily credits can I expect with a 4870?

20:25 <xcamel> with no special hardware..

20:25 <xcamel> oops..

20:25 <wdsmia> http://milkyway.cs.rpi.edu/milkyway/show_host_detail.php?hostid=43787

20:25 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/8q5gv2> (at milkyway.cs.rpi.edu)

20:25 <xcamel> 2,589,292 with no special hardware

20:26 <ELGono> my girlfriend writing her final exam on a car driving simulator using 6 projectors in 180 stereo image panorama

20:26 <zombie67> no RAC, I mean daily.

20:26 <ELGono> they just implemented physX

20:26 <ELGono> wich is using cuda as well

20:26 <xcamel> loke 2.7m in einstein, 1.8m in seti 1.5m in qmc 2.2m in cpdn

20:26 <MTughan> zombie67: I can't say yet, but in about 7 hours of crunching, even with a fluctuating stream of WUs, I'm up 14K.

20:26 <xcamel> like, even

20:27 <zombie67> MT:  how much of a CPU core does it use?

20:27 <xcamel> just my old junky machines

20:28 <MTughan> I have 4 apps running at the same time, takes about 12% overall, about 50% of one core.

20:28 <MTughan> The recommended way of crunching is a number of tasks on the GPU, and leave the other three cores to other projects, at least on a quad.

20:28 <zombie67> did you need to add a "5th" cpu with cc_config?

20:28 <wdsmia> 4 lol try 16 :)

20:28 <xcamel> wd: http://milkyway.cs.rpi.edu/milkyway/show_host_detail.php?hostid=13143

20:28 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/cj227z> (at milkyway.cs.rpi.edu)

20:28 <MTughan> I did, but you probably don't need to.

20:29 <zombie67> it would seem a waste to allocate a whole CPU to the GPU task, if it is using only 50% of it...

20:29 <zombie67> so BOINC sees it as a CPU task, right?

20:29 <MTughan> Well, run 8 GPU tasks at once, and theoretically, they'll take one core. ;)

20:29 <MTughan> Yes.

20:30 <MTughan> wdsmia: The link you posted before, is that a 4870 or 4850 card?

20:30 <MTughan> Because 16 seconds seems "long". :P

20:30 <MTughan> &math 16 / 1.2

20:30 <Romulus> MTughan: 13.3333333333

20:30 <wdsmia> 4850 on that one

20:31 <MTughan> Yeah, my 4870 gets anywhere from 5-12 seconds of CPU time per task.

20:31 <wdsmia> same on my quad with the 4870

20:31 <MTughan> zombie67: Give me a sec, let me see if I can manage with 4 cores as normal, and 8 GPU tasks...

20:32 <PovAddict> MTughan: our initial OOBE was "omg the packaging"

20:32 <zombie67> wait....you can run more than one GPU task at a time??

20:32 <MTughan> lol, yeah...

20:32 <MTughan> zombie67: Yeah, I'm running 4 at a time.

20:32 <zombie67> how is that possible?

20:32 <MTughan> And the efficiency gets better as you run more.

20:33 <wdsmia> shhh dont tell him that

20:33 <MTughan> wdsmia: You already have too many credits.

20:33 <zombie67> also, how do you manage how many tasks run on the GPU vs CPU?   they are all seen as CPU tasks...right?

20:33 <wdsmia> 8M behind zombie67

20:33 <xcamel> you get yo use your computer in 16 color EGA mode, but the wi's are burning up...

20:33 <zombie67> what is the max number of tasks you can run on the GPU at once?

20:34 <PovAddict> credits are meaningless

20:34 <MTughan> zombie67: I've just played around with the avg_ncpus value. I set it to 0.25, for a quarter of a core.

20:34 <zombie67> pov:  TRVTH

20:34 <PovAddict> zombie67: depends on how many cores the app uses, I think

20:34 <PovAddict> (remember a GPU has hundreds of "cores")

20:34 <MTughan> zombie67: Probably quite a few, limited by the video memory. I have a 1GB card, will take quite a few.

20:34 <MTughan> Yeah, the 4870 has 800 cores.

20:34 <zombie67> I am getting confused

20:34 <PovAddict> well yeah

20:35 <MTughan> Although I believe you only "see" 320 when doing double-precision.

20:35 <PovAddict> how many you can run at once depends on video memory

20:35 <wdsmia> but using double precsion so only 320

20:35 <PovAddict> how many you can run at once until the performance starts going down instead of up depends on other things

20:35 <MTughan> Yep, wasn't sure I had the right number.

20:36 <zombie67> 1gb seems to be the max available

20:36 <zombie67> how much RAM does each task require?

20:36 <PovAddict> RAM or VRAM? ;)

20:36 <wdsmia> running 16 at a time on a 8650 takes about 5 min wall clock time

20:37 <zombie67> I am asking about the ram on the card.  You said:  "limited by the video memory"

20:37 <MTughan> He means VRAM, Pov.

20:39 <zombie67> Has no one worked out the VRAM/task requirement?

20:39 <wdsmia> 8 at a time less than 2 min... 1 at a time seconds

20:39 <zombie67> If that is the thing that limits the number of tasks....

20:39 *** Aeternus has quit IRC

20:40 <MTughan> Gah, what the heck... I'm changing cc_config and app_info, but they're having no effect on BOINC... And yes, I'm shutting it down before modifying the files.

20:41 <zombie67> how does one control how many GPU apps with MW, vs the number of tasks with other projects?  They are all labeled CPU tasks, right?

20:42 <MTughan> I think it's the avg_ncpus field in the app_info, but I can't check because BOINC is being idiotic.

20:42 <zombie67> if you crank up your CPUs with cc_config, you could end up with 1 MW task and (say) 15 NQueens tasks

20:42 <wdsmia> bad thing about GPU crunching on the 86XX boinc does what it wants almost imposible to try to controle

20:42 <zombie67> so you have to run 100% MW??

20:43 <wdsmia> this 15 min next maybe high pri on a 1% progect

20:44 <wdsmia> its nuts

20:44 <wdsmia> really bad on the i7

20:45 <wdsmia> it has no rhyme or reason its Boinc

20:46 <xcamel> lol

20:46 <zombie67> anything higher than 6.2.* is completely broken

20:47 <MTughan> I

20:47 <MTughan> I'm running 6.2.19 and it's still acting oddly...

20:47 <MTughan> At least it seems that with 10 GPU tasks, it uses just over one core.

20:47 <MTughan> About 1-2% more.

20:48 <PovAddict> zombie67: anything lower than 6.3.x has no GPU support at all

20:48 <MTughan> I think it's just debts now...

20:49 <PovAddict> any version with any GPU support sux

20:49 <MTughan> PovAddict: No GPU support for Nvidia.

20:49 <zombie67> not necessary with MW GPU I think

20:49 <MTughan> It has support for ATI through the MW app, I've proven.

20:49 <PovAddict> that's because not even the latest 6.6 supports ATI GPUs :)

20:49 <zombie67> MW GPU is just another CPU task as far as BOINC is concerned

20:50 <MTughan> And I imagine that 6.2.x and lower would have support for CUDA as well, if a project had an application like this.

20:50 <MTughan> It's just that 6.4.x and higher added support for detection of GPUs to make it autonomous, or in theory at least.

20:50 <zombie67> I have a Q6700 with a 550w PSU....enough for a 4870?

20:51 <MTughan> I think I actually have a bit of a resource share issue... BOINC will run GPU tasks, but it's running 4 CPU tasks ATM.

20:51 <MTughan> zombie67: Good question. I think so, as when I have my OC'd Q6600 and the 4870 at max load, I've seen about 400W being drawn from the wall.

20:51 <wdsmia> zombie67 step away from the light

20:51 <MTughan> &math 400 * 0.78

20:51 <Romulus> MTughan: 312

20:52 <MTughan> Estimating 78% efficiency, that means the computer was drawing about 310W.

20:52 <zombie67> it is a dedicated cruncher, so it would be maxing out the CPU and the GPU 100% of the time...

20:53 <MTughan> I have a 750W PSU, so I'm not really worrying about that.

20:54 <wdsmia> remember to upgrade your UPS's current draw is a bitch

20:55 <zombie67> I have melted so many...

20:55 <MTughan> You also might want to use ATI's CCC to force the GPU fan higher. This is card dependent, but I had to force my fan to 90% to keep the temps in the high 80s.

20:56 <zombie67> no app for OSX?

20:56 <MTughan> ATI or CUDA?

20:57 <zombie67> either... for MW

20:57 <wdsmia> your SOL there zombie67

20:57 <MTughan> MW doesn't have a CUDA app yet, and it doesn't look like ATI makes the Stream SDK for OS X.

20:58 <MTughan> No, only XP, Vista, Red Hat Enterprise, and SUSE Enterprise are formally supported.

21:00 <PovAddict> <zombie67> MW GPU is just another CPU task as far as BOINC is concerned

21:00 <PovAddict> that will cause either too many CPU tasks if MW has no work, or idle CPU time in some other cases

21:01 <zombie67> right...like I said

21:01 <MTughan> I'm timing how long 10 tasks take to complete...

21:01 <MTughan> About 1 min at the halfway point.

21:01 <zombie67> [17:42]  <zombie67> so you have to run 100% MW??

21:02 <zombie67> What are DA's plans for ATI support, like the CUDA support?

21:03 <PovAddict> yes

21:03 <PovAddict> bbl

21:03 <zombie67> no, I am asking a question

21:03 <zombie67> what are his plans?

21:03 <MTughan> I seem to remember reading about it... Trying to find it.

21:05 <MTughan> One email from DA they're going to get 6.6 "out the door" first.

21:06 <PovAddict> implementing it the same as current cuda support

21:06 <PovAddict> MTughan: go to trac, click roadmap, look at 6.6 progress bar :P

21:06 <PovAddict> they will release, then bump all tickets to 6.8; I'm sure about it

21:07 <MTughan> He said it was about a month away, message sent on the 17th.

21:09 <PovAddict> if he releases in a month, my previous statement is true

21:09 <PovAddict> they can't fix 85 bugs in a month

21:09 <MTughan> Yeah.

21:09 <MTughan> 3 weeks now.

21:11 <zombie67> fix?  Are you kidding?

21:11 <zombie67> they just keep heaping on changes willy-nilly

21:12 <zombie67> there is absolutely no discipline that I can see.

21:12 <MTughan> Maybe they'll only "fix" the 9 blocker and critical bugs?

21:13 <wdsmia> [19:45] <wdsmia> it has no rhyme or reason its Boinc

21:13 <MTughan> I can be hopeful. :P

21:14 <MTughan> Of course, the first bug on the list... Original milestone was 5.10. >_>

21:14 <wdsmia> I thought that way 6 years ago

21:15 <zombie67> Ooh!  A new Top Gear!

21:16 * wdsmia goes to eat and turn on BBC

21:17 <MTughan> And another bug about CPU usage with long tasks... Apparently, the original milestone was 5.10 too. Now is 6.6.

21:18 <MTughan> There's even a patch submitted by Didactylos for it.

21:29 <MTughan> zombie67: Well, while they're going slowly, apparently 20 tasks can run on a 1GB GPU at once.

21:32 <MTughan> Actually, I may have had 30 tasks running, not sure...

21:39 <PovAddict> boinc?

21:39 <Romulus> I guess boinc is all perfect and stuff, PovAddict

21:40 <PovAddict> I love triggering that factoid

21:40 <MTughan> lol

21:40 <MTughan> Rommie naivitivity?

21:42 <PovAddict> dad's mac still downloading upgrades

21:42 <PovAddict> 10.5.6 370MB or so

21:43 <MTughan> Really? Mine shipped with 10.5.6.

21:44 <PovAddict> how long ago?

21:44 <MTughan> Received it Friday.

21:44 <MTughan> Came straight from the factory.

21:45 <PovAddict> this one arrived to his office a few days after we went on holiday

21:45 <PovAddict> and who knows how long ago the order was made

21:46 <MTughan> Makes sense then.

21:48 <PovAddict> http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2369/236/115/655543584/n655543584_1506422_885.jpg

21:48 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/ct8vhr> (at photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net)

21:48 <PovAddict> Eric Korpela posted it on his facebook album

21:49 <PovAddict> must be SETI network

21:49 <MTughan> Average 90Mbit in?

21:49 <MTughan> Doesn't seem too bad.

21:49 *** infinisoft has quit IRC

21:50 <zombie67> MT, thanks for all the info on ATI crds

21:50 <MTughan> np zombie. Now go eclipse wdsmia. xD

21:51 <PovAddict> he's been there done that

21:51 <MTughan> lol

21:59 <zombie67> heh

22:00 <zombie67> I could easily triple my RAC....but I am concentrating on my goals instead

22:01 <zombie67> http://stats5.free-dc.org/mosttag.php?cpid=0a7b8378436fdcaef549d87e35f26480

22:01 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/chml7l> (at stats5.free-dc.org)

22:13 <PovAddict> still 29 minutes for OS X 10.5.6 update to finish downloading

22:14 <PovAddict> I very much prefer frequent "OS X 10.<x>.<y>" updates than "Windows <x> SP<y>" updates every two years btw

22:16 <MTughan> Yeah.

22:17 <PovAddict> Ctrl + two fingers up and down = full screen zoom

22:18 <PovAddict> it's much faster than Compiz doing that

22:18 <MTughan> Ctrl + Scroll, yeah. It's an accessibility feature.

22:18 <PovAddict> I bet future versions will do that without looking pixelated

22:18 <MTughan> Press Cmd+Option+/ to turn off smoothing.

22:19 <PovAddict> I look forward to that zoom looking like this -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OSX_ResIndependance_Comparison.png

22:19 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/avfb7z> (at en.wikipedia.org)

22:20 <MTughan> Hmm, that shortcut is the one listed, but it doesn't seem to do anything...

22:20 <MTughan> Oh, backslash... :)

22:20 <MTughan> Cmd+Option+Backslash toggles smoothing.

22:21 <zombie67> POV?  do you have a mac???

22:21 <MTughan> Try Cmd+Option+Ctrl+8. :)

22:21 <MTughan> His dad just got a new one.

22:21 <zombie67> hah!!

22:21 *** desti has quit IRC

22:21 <zombie67> welcome to the "right" side!

22:21 <zombie67> ;)

22:21 <PovAddict> zombie67: dad "upgraded" his

22:21 <zombie67> which model?

22:22 <MTughan> Aluminum MacBook, 2GHz, 4GB RAM.

22:22 <PovAddict> his old one is a PowerBook G4

22:22 <PovAddict> Tiger

22:22 <PovAddict> new one is what MTughan just said

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22:22 <zombie67> which CPU?

22:22 <PovAddict> Core Duo 2

22:22 <MTughan> Core 2 Duo. It's an Aluminum MacBook.

22:22 <zombie67> Aluminum is a PPC nomenclature

22:22 <PovAddict> it has faster RAM than I do on my desktop :(

22:23 <PovAddict> (and twice as much)

22:23 <MTughan> Maybe, but they never made a PPC MacBook. ;)

22:23 <zombie67> so it's the last model before the bucket

22:23 <PovAddict> it's a MacBook, non-Pro, non-Air

22:23 <PovAddict> non-plastic, so aluminum

22:23 <PovAddict> :)

22:23 <MTughan> Apparently, the processor is a P7350.

22:24 <zombie67> what??

22:24 <zombie67> P7350 is not Core 2

22:24 <MTughan> There's a Penryn-3M with that model number.

22:25 <MTughan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_2_microprocessors#.22Penryn-3M.22_.28medium-voltage.2C_45_nm.29

22:25 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/m3vds> (at en.wikipedia.org)

22:25 <MTughan> The 2.4GHz model is a P8600.

22:26 <PovAddict> where can I get that info?

22:26 <PovAddict> Mac has no /proc/cpuinfo ;)

22:26 <zombie67> Wow....I wonder if they were offered for even a week...

22:26 <MTughan> PovAddict: I looked it online.

22:27 <zombie67> pov, "about this mac"

22:27 <PovAddict> that says core 2 duo, not internal model number

22:27 <MTughan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook#Mode_specifications_2

22:27 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/y4k87c> (at en.wikipedia.org)

22:27 <MTughan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacBook#Model_specifications_2

22:27 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/y4k87c> (at en.wikipedia.org)

22:27 <MTughan> That's what I get for typing it out... :P

22:27 <PovAddict> "2GHz Intel Core 2 Duo"

22:28 <PovAddict> he could have got 2.4GHz, but he preferred to get more RAM instead

22:29 <PovAddict> "the aluminum MacBook's display is inferior to those found on the MacBook Pro and MacBook Air, alleging a smaller viewing angle, washed-out colors, and dimmer backlighting"

22:29 <zombie67> great resource:  Mactracker.app

22:30 <PovAddict> if the aluminum MacBook's display is "inferior", then what do you call the PowerBook's display? pure crap?

22:30 <PovAddict> the MacBook display seems awesome in comparison, can't imagine what the Pro is like if it's even better

22:30 <MTughan> It's nice, as long as you have the brightness up and not much backlighting.

22:31 <PovAddict> uses leds?

22:31 <MTughan> Yes.

22:32 <MTughan> Gah... Quicksilver is a great app, but uses so much CPU at times...

22:32 <zombie67> QS?

22:32 <Romulus> Rumor has it QS is WAY more than spotlight. better at what spotlight does too, zombie67

22:32 <zombie67> can't live without it!

22:32 <PovAddict> I think it depends on what you do

22:33 <MTughan> I can live without the 150% CPU usage it uses every time I start it up.

22:33 <PovAddict> Google Desktop was useful to me, until it got full of privacy-invading features, and useless (in my opinion unrelated to searching) features

22:34 <PovAddict> I tried a desktop search program on Linux and it was useless

22:34 <zombie67> MT, that ain't right

22:34 <zombie67> QS takes no CPU for me

22:34 <PovAddict> because most of my files are source code, not "office documents" or multimedia :P

22:34 <MTughan> You're telling me.

22:34 <PovAddict> and

22:34 <PovAddict> it didn't "properly" index web history, chat logs, etc

22:35 <PovAddict> (they could be indexed as any text file, but it didn't understand the log structure so I could search "message said by X containing words Y and Z")

22:35 <zombie67> QS is wicked smart knowing what you mean

22:35 <PovAddict> zombie67: I won't question that

22:36 <PovAddict> but you can't question that Macs are pricey :)

22:36 <zombie67> TRVTH

22:36 <zombie67> worth it, IMO

22:36 <PovAddict> I don't think I have enough saved to buy any mac

22:37 <PovAddict> did you see Microsoft wants to open its own shops?

22:37 <PovAddict> a la AppleStore

22:38 <zombie67> yeah, good luck!

22:38 <zombie67> OS is so damn sexy!!

22:40 <zombie67> I love to window-shop code!

22:40 <PovAddict> I read some criticism on Mac UI

22:41 <PovAddict> in all cases, the criticism is right

22:41 <PovAddict> and still, compared to Windows UI flaws, the Mac criticism is almost always nitpicking on details!

22:41 <zombie67> it's ALL about the details

22:42 <PovAddict> analogy would be people complaining "Leopard" as a name sucks

22:42 <PovAddict> when Windows can't even keep a consistent naming scheme

22:42 <zombie67> I have bought (and sold) 20+ cars because the details annoyed me

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22:44 <PovAddict> Windows 1.0, Windows 2.0, Windows/386 (aka 2.1), Windows 3.1, Windows 95, 98, Millenium Edition, NT, 2000, XP, Vista, 7?

22:44 <MTughan> Not counting SPs.

22:44 <MTughan> And there was a Windows 3.0.

22:44 <PovAddict> irrelevant for the comparison imho

22:44 <zombie67> getting the details RIGHT, and working together so that you DON'T notice them....is priceless

22:45 <PovAddict> and 3.0 is not worth mentioning :P (then again maybe I should have dropped ME)

22:45 <MTughan> BTW, Mactracker does include the specs of the CPU for the new Aluminum MacBooks.

22:45 <PovAddict> anyway

22:45 <PovAddict> compare to OS X

22:45 <PovAddict> Kodiak, Cheetah, Puma, Jaguar, Panther, Tiger, Leopard, Snow Leopard

22:45 <MTughan> Try Mac OS overall. X just means 10.

22:45 <PovAddict> is it silly to name it after cats?

22:46 <PovAddict> *it doesn't matter!* what matters is that they chose a scheme and sticked to it

22:47 <PovAddict> the new software upgrade is great

22:47 <zombie67> MT:  huh?  I see the CPU specs

22:47 <PovAddict> it only downloads updates

22:47 <PovAddict> installs them when you click "yes I want to reboot"

22:47 <PovAddict> (or if you reboot manually later)

22:47 <MTughan> zombie67: I said it did. What are you confused about?

22:47 <MTughan> PovAddict: 7's does that as well, as well as Vista I think.

22:48 <PovAddict> XP can install during shutdown

22:48 <PovAddict> but the default is install silently then annoy you to death that you need to reboot because of the installs

22:49 <PovAddict> and in the shutdown dialog, there is no option to "install updates and reboot", only "install updates and shutdown"

22:50 <zombie67> MT:  Ah, I read a "not" in there

22:52 <PovAddict> http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/08/12/11/apple_working_on_3d_mac_os_x_user_interface_images.html

22:52 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/646uo9> (at www.appleinsider.com)

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