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00:19 <MTughan> rofl... 2/26/2009 12:19:33 AM||[error] Proposed work request 30377361.167049 bigger than max 349059.490560
00:20 <MTughan> MW's doing too much work.
00:26 <MTughan> What the... I just looked in my client_state.xml file, to check STD and LTD for my two projects, and noticed something:
00:26 <MTughan> There's a <accelerators> tag that contains the name of my GPU.
00:27 <jasong> Hey, zombie67, is Atom a good investment as a cruncher? I don't have to pay for electricity here, but heat is a concern. I guess that's my biggest concern in terms of upgrades, high crunch to emitted heat ratio
00:28 <jasong> Anybody can answer that even though I said it to zombie :)
00:28 <MTughan> I think that's what he's experimenting with. For 1.6GHz, and 4 threads at once, it seems like it won't be that bad of a cruncher.
00:28 <MTughan> Considering the TDP of an Atom.
00:28 <jasong> So hyperthreading is back?
00:28 <MTughan> In both the Atom and the i7...
00:29 <jasong> wow, not sure how I feel about that
00:29 <MTughan> Core i7 is a quad-core, but Windows sees it as 8 CPUs, and will run 8 threads on it.
00:33 <jasong> Looks like the centos people like for people to use up their bandwidth, there's no obvious link to a torrent
00:33 <Soul_keeper> an underclocked c2d beats an atom in every way
00:34 <Soul_keeper> even power consumption
00:34 <jasong> What about an uderclocked c2q
00:34 <jasong> ?
00:34 <Soul_keeper> that'd be good too
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00:34 <jasong> I'd love to get extra power without turning my room into a sauna
00:35 <jasong> Is it possible to reduce the wattage and simultaneously get more crunching per watt?
00:35 * jasong is dumb when it comes to this
00:35 <Soul_keeper> they are pretty much proportional
00:36 <Soul_keeper> assuming the same process technology
00:36 <MTughan> No, not quite.
00:36 <jasong> lol, so it's better just to get the most crunching per watt under normal settings, huh?
00:36 <MTughan> Underclocking, it's linear.
00:36 <MTughan> Undervolting will increase efficiency.
00:36 <jasong> ah, asked the wrong question
00:36 <MTughan> Even if you have to underclock to undervolt.
00:36 <Soul_keeper> if you say so
00:37 <MTughan> Soul_keeper: Even Intel says that voltage has a squared relationship to power usage.
00:37 <jasong> Yeah, I've heard of people doing that to get extra battery time from Turions
00:37 <MTughan> If you increase the voltage by 10%, you increase the power usage by 21%.
00:37 <MTughan> 1.1 * 1.1 = 1.21
00:37 <Soul_keeper> i really don't care, all i know is if you want more power you're going to get more watts, and yes the leakage increase substantially with voltage/heat
00:37 <jasong> So it's a squared proportion?
00:38 <MTughan> Yes, if you want more power, you get more watts.
00:38 <MTughan> But jasong asked "more crunching per watt".
00:39 <jasong> I realize there are two different conversations going on here, in a sense, but I think MT has put me on the right track :)
00:39 <efc> Since the cpu power is only a part of the system, you'd have to find the sweet spot somehow
00:40 <jasong> Yes, that's definitely a concern, since everything involved uses power and gives off heat
00:41 <jasong> Does anyone know about intelligent window air conditioners that notice the temperature?
00:41 <Soul_keeper> when intel says such things they are mostly talking about the upper limits of a particular core/tech
00:41 <jasong> My dad doesn't approve of my hobby, so he's intentionally dense when I talk to him
00:42 <jasong> (he doesn't care about the electricity, he just thinks I'm an idiot for having this particular hobby
00:42 <efc> Intelligent?
00:42 <jasong> I mean an air conditioner that can turn on and off depending on the temperature in the room
00:43 <jasong> It would also be nice if it changed things according to the temperature of outside air
00:43 <zombie67> back
00:43 <jasong> My present air conditioner doesn't have any AI at all
00:44 <jasong> It's basically set and pay careful attention to, or else you'll have an uninhabitable room
00:44 <efc> Like a thermostat?
00:44 <efc> I thought they usually had those, even window units
00:45 <jasong> Well, I don't know anything at all about it, so the idea of researching it is rather daunting
00:47 <jasong> (I was involved in Find-a-Drug for months before I knew enough to feel confident to research it. I majorly fear change, it's in my mental make-up)
00:47 <jasong> it being DCing
00:47 <jasong> (first it)
00:47 <efc> Need help finding a thermostat?
00:48 <jasong> Actually, I was hoping someone could give me some basic guidelines on how to figure out the right thing to get, since people are smarter than any search engine
00:49 <efc> A thermostat isn't really smart.. its just a temperature controlled siwtch
00:49 <efc> Unless yours is very old I'd expect it to have one
00:49 <efc> Usually on a window unit, they'll turn off the compressor but not the fan
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00:49 <efc> so its always going but not always actually cooling
00:51 <jasong> Okay, I'm going to sound like an idiot now, but the biggest problem is that the fan can't be told to turn off and on according to a setting, it has to be manually adjusted. I hate that fact with a passion since the temperature outside can change rather quickly without me knowing
00:52 <jasong> If it's warmer than I want it to be outside, it's set and forget, but cold days are a PITA
00:52 <jasong> If it's warmer outside than I want it in my room, I mean
00:55 <jasong> If I may ask a silly question, how do rpms work?
00:56 <jasong> I clicked to download an x86_64 Linux installer dvd iso, and all I'm seeing are some very small rpm files
00:56 <MTughan> RPMs as in the measurement unit, or the package manager?
00:57 <jasong> I think maybe the website might just be set up badly
00:57 <MTughan> I'm not sure of their exact structure, but I believe they just contain the software, either compiled or the source to be compiled, along with a list of dependencies.
00:57 <MTughan> That's just a guess off of my experience with them though, I've never done any research into it.
01:00 <jasong> Yeah, the website sucks, that's what caused my confusion
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01:18 <MTughan> Uh oh... BOINC just tried to cram my whole MW cache of 48 WUs through the GPU at once... Seems to have stalled all of them.
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01:33 <jasong> Off-topic for BOINC, but I've been thinking about this whole economic stimulus thing. What if, instead of simple money being given to the banks, they gave a restricted sort of voucher to American citizens(or Europeans for the European government)? It would be the same as cash as long as (1) you spent it within a given amount of time, and (2) you spent it on stuff that you'd want during a thriving economy
01:34 <jasong> So it would basically be free money that you would HAVE to spend as mad money
01:34 <jasong> I mean, the whole idea of using taxes to boost the economy is stupid, but if they insist on doing, I'm sure we need it more than the bankers
01:35 <efc> The whole thing seems like a decent into insanity..
01:36 <MTughan> descent*
01:36 <efc> Thats quite banana of you, MTughan
01:36 <MTughan> Well a descent into insanity isn't decent. ;)
01:36 <efc> Galoshes galore, Starwberry Bangalore!
01:51 <jasong> There are over 1000 people in #linux :eek:
01:58 <jasong> I think I need to go to bed. If I'm not up when CentOS finishes downloading I won't be tempted to install it in the wee(Good Lord, my first attempt came out Wii) hours of the morning
01:58 <efc> Au repetoire
01:59 <MTughan> I'm off to bed too. 2AM, and I've finally gotten BOINC running ABC and MW just how I'd like it.
01:59 <MTughan> I wish we could assign cores to projects...
02:00 <jasong> Yes, MT, but that makes sense, so it won't happen
02:00 <MTughan> lol
02:01 <jasong> Remember, the difference between truth and fiction is that fiction has to make sense
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03:05 <jasong> If something is going to be out by 2010, does that mean the latest it will be out is January 1st, 2011, or January 1st, 2010?
03:05 <jasong> Sorry for being dense, I just want to make sure I'm understanding what I'm reading
03:06 <desti_T2> 31. dec 2010
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03:09 <efc> Usually that kind of thing is a lie anyway
03:32 <ELGono> jasong: it depends on wich calendar you count
03:33 <ELGono> actually we're beyong 2010 .... catholic curch added a few years
03:54 <XioNYC> &wx LGA
03:54 <Romulus> XioNYC: Temperature: 35°F / 2°C | Humidity: 61% | Pressure: 30.35in / 1028hPa (Steady) | Conditions: Scattered Clouds | Wind Direction: SSW | Wind Speed: 7mph / 11km/h ; Tonight - Partly cloudy early...then becoming mostly cloudy. Lows in the lower 30s. South winds 5 to 10 mph.; Thursday - Mostly cloudy in the morning...then becoming partly sunny. Highs in the upper 40s. Southwest winds 5 to 10 (1 more message)
03:54 <XioNYC> &more
03:54 <Romulus> XioNYC: mph.; Thursday Night - Partly cloudy in the evening...then becoming mostly cloudy. Lows around 40. South winds 5 to 10 mph.;
03:57 <ELGono> &weather meiningen,germany
03:57 <Romulus> ELGono: Temperature: 32Â°F / 0Â°C | Humidity: 93% | Pressure: 30.04in / 1017hPa | Conditions: Light Snow | Wind Direction: WSW | Wind Speed: 17mph / 28km/h | Updated: 9:50 AM CET; Chance of Snow. High:39 ° F.; Chance of Rain. Low:33 ° F.; Chance of Snow. High:39 ° F.; Chance of Rain. Low:37 ° F.; Chance of Rain. High:44 ° F.; Chance of Rain. Low:33 ° F.;
03:58 <ELGono> snow rain snow rain.... when will this end
03:59 <XioNYC> When the temperature is above the dew point.
04:00 <efc> &wx 31088
04:00 <Romulus> efc: Temperature: 49°F / 9°C | Humidity: 89% | Pressure: 30.30in / 1026hPa (Steady) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: SE | Wind Speed: 5mph / 7km/h ; Rest of Tonight - Mostly cloudy. Lows in the mid 40s. Light and variable winds.; Thursday - Partly sunny. Highs in the upper 60s. South winds 5 to 15 mph.; Thursday Night - Mostly cloudy. Lows in the upper 40s. Light southeast winds.;
04:00 <ELGono> that sounds nice ed
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04:27 <CoderForLife> &wx 45140
04:27 <Romulus> CoderForLife: Temperature: 46.5°F / 8.1°C | Humidity: 82% | Pressure: 30.12in / 1019.9hPa (Falling) | Conditions: Overcast | Wind Direction: SSW | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Today - Cloudy with a 20 percent chance of showers...mainly late. Highs in the lower 60s. South winds 10 to 15 mph with gusts up to 30 mph.; Tonight - Occasional showers...a chance of thunderstorms after midnight. Breezy (1 more message)
04:27 <CoderForLife> &more
04:27 <Romulus> CoderForLife: with lows in the upper 40s. South winds 15 to 25 mph. Chance of rain 100 percent.; Friday - Mostly cloudy. Showers likely in the morning. Colder. Near steady temperatures in the upper 40s. West winds 15 to 20 mph...becoming northwest 10 to 15 mph in the afternoon. Chance of rain 70 percent.;
04:42 <ELGono> root@g094:/# uptime
04:42 <ELGono> 10:42am up 326 days, 2:18, 1 user,
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04:45 <CoderForLife> brb breakfast
04:52 <CoderForLife> b
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05:10 <ELGono> this is a pretty cool design ;:)
05:11 * CoderForLife clicks
05:11 <CoderForLife> meh
05:12 <ELGono> think it's only for blind-typers
05:13 <CoderForLife> oh
05:13 <ELGono> don't think you can see first 3 rows of keyboard when typing like shown on the pic
05:13 <ELGono> but it does look fancy
05:26 <CoderForLife> time to get ready for w@#% - bbiab
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05:42 *** ChanServ sets mode: +ooo xcamel hawmps CoderForLife
05:45 *** xcamel sets mode: -o hawmps
05:45 *** xcamel sets mode: -o CoderForLife
05:45 *** xcamel sets mode: -o xcamel
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06:11 <CoderForLife> b
06:11 <CoderForLife> off to w@#%
06:11 <CoderForLife> laterz
06:38 <hawmps> 'mornin
06:59 <ELGono> moo jay
07:11 <hawmps> 'lo ElG
07:25 <ELGono> wondering about german news
07:25 <ELGono> real interesting themes missing
07:26 <ELGono> looks like german media switched on "softener washing programm"
07:27 <hawmps> got mt 6.6.11 - and it seems to be working fine..
07:27 <ELGono> coool
07:27 <hawmps> and it's trying to get work all by itself..
07:27 <ELGono> just this morning i thougt, i really need a working linux box in my flat again
07:27 <hawmps> indeed
07:27 <ELGono> just have some servers
07:27 <hawmps> more heat..
07:28 <ELGono> :)
07:28 <ELGono> i already have a 2kWh (24/7) avarage
07:29 <ELGono> wich must be wrong... began to check myself with an electricity meter
07:29 <ELGono> last week
07:29 <ELGono> 80€ / month ...
07:29 <ELGono> for a 3 room flat
07:29 <ELGono> just electricity... thats way to mucho
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09:19 <PovAdct_w> a Sun engineer discovered shouting at hard disks makes them slower
09:21 <wdsmia_w> how about swearing at them?
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09:22 <PovAdct_w> if you're loud...
09:23 <PovAdct_w> vibration causes a latency peak on the disk
09:23 <PovAdct_w> the video also shows something else
09:23 <PovAdct_w> being in a data center for so long, lacking sleep, makes you go so mad you start shouting at disks and doing stupid experiments like that :P
09:24 <wdsmia_w> been there done it
09:24 <Romulus> Title: YouTube - Shouting in the Datacenter (at www.youtube.com)
09:24 <PovAdct_w> "
09:24 <PovAdct_w> Poor disks they were just scared.
09:24 <PovAdct_w> "
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09:43 <Tank_Master> lol
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09:52 <hawmps> they will explode at around 24,000 rpm.
10:40 <PovAdct_w> I badly need a zipfs for Windows
10:41 <PovAdct_w> to mount zip files without having to fully extract it first
10:41 <PovAdct_w> I'd write one based on WinFUSE... but WinFUSE is .NET, and I don't know .NET
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11:30 <ELGono> for all linux dudes ... http://www.tuxradar.com/content/browser-benchmarks-2-even-wine-beats-linux-firefox
11:30 <MTughan> Yeah, I saw that...
11:32 <ELGono> i don't understand, why they don't split it in two versions like a lite and full
11:33 <MTughan> What would lite be?
11:33 <ELGono> maybe some performance optimized less feature supporting version
11:34 <ELGono> even on windows it's feels slow
11:34 <ELGono> but maybe i just have too many tasks open
11:35 <ELGono> err tabs
11:35 <MTughan> They're also using 3.0.6. FF 3.1 has a lot of performance optimizations, so I would've been more interested in them comparing 3.1b2 on either platform.
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11:59 <PovAdct_w> FF linux really does suck in performance
12:01 <jackygrahamez> Hi PovAdct_w
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12:49 <Soul_keeper> HA !!!
12:49 <Soul_keeper> lsnet in C is fully functional now
12:50 <Soul_keeper> counting comments 3400 lines of code :)
12:51 <Soul_keeper> PovAdct_w, FF is great, dunno what you did wrong ...
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14:29 <yoyo[RKN]> moin
14:29 <yoyo[RKN]> &wx sxf
14:29 <Romulus> yoyo[RKN]: Temperature: 41Â°F / 5Â°C | Humidity: 87% | Pressure: 29.77in / 1008hPa | Conditions: Rain | Wind Direction: WSW | Wind Speed: 17mph / 28km/h | Updated: 8:20 PM CET; Chance of Rain. High:44 ° F.; Chance of Rain. Low:37 ° F.; Chance of Rain. High:42 ° F.; Chance of Rain. Low:33 ° F.; Chance of Rain. High:48 ° F.; Chance of Rain. Low:39 ° F.;
14:30 <yoyo[RKN]> is the mothership@home project sleeping?
14:34 <hawmps> btw -- 6.6.11 is stable, and it looks like the workfetch is fixed, but you might have to reset your projects to clear the LTD
14:36 <Romulus> Title: Lsnet Stats 0.3.0 (at sterlingdesktops.com)
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15:44 <jackygrahamez> why does office 07 suck so much?
15:45 <jackygrahamez> oh hey yoyo
15:45 <jackygrahamez> we got some stuff in the pipeline
15:46 <jackygrahamez> some kind of drupal php hybrid
15:46 <jackygrahamez> oh dear me it is really not looking too good right now
15:48 <yoyo[RKN]> I like the user of the day ;)
15:49 <jackygrahamez> now try it
15:49 <jackygrahamez> that user of the day has a very big banner :-)
15:49 <yoyo[RKN]> lol
15:50 <PovAddict> bleh
15:51 <yoyo[RKN]> now the styl looks good
15:53 <CoderForLife> home again
15:53 <CoderForLife> Zzzzzz
15:54 <PovAddict> hey CoderForLife
15:54 <CoderForLife> hello PovAddict =)
15:54 <CoderForLife> wrestling with vendors is very tiring
15:56 <jackygrahamez> now see the logos I just added
15:57 <PovAddict> "I find it a bit confusing how commonplace Adobe Reader has become. For some reason everybody seems to be using it for reading PDF files. Even though there are plenty of free alternatives. And the alternatives are much smaller and faster. And start up in under a minute."
15:57 <PovAddict> "From my point of view, Adobe Reader has become the new IE. For security reasons, avoid it if you can."
15:58 <yoyo[RKN]> is it a UFO in middle on the top?
15:58 <jackygrahamez> Its the national library of medicine commonly reffered to by the NIH as the "Mothership"
15:58 <xcamel> 'lo
15:59 <jackygrahamez> now if I could just insert that transparent gif another way...let me see
16:03 <Soul_keeper> hey people !
16:06 <jackygrahamez> progress. I got the transparent gif over the background
16:06 <jackygrahamez> now if I could keep said person's banner within the margins that would be nice
16:07 <yoyo[RKN]> ;)
16:07 * CoderForLife goes to find something to eat
16:08 * PovAddict is eating cheesecake
16:12 <KathrynM> you've gotta be kiddingme
16:12 <KathrynM> I'm gonna scream at the next person who reports an alpha problem on the boards
16:13 <MTughan> Just don't scream at a JBOD array. It increases the latency. ;)
16:15 * CoderForLife returns
16:16 * KathrynM waves at CoderForLife
16:16 * CoderForLife waves with a roast beef sandwich
16:17 <KathrynM> send one over here
16:17 <Romulus> Title: Lsnet Stats 0.3.0 (at sterlingdesktops.com)
16:17 * KathrynM wonders if the kitten is still laying in KathrynM's spot in bed
16:17 <CoderForLife> it might be cheaper, rather than shipping costs, if I can you the money to buy locally
16:18 <MTughan> Soul_keeper: Maybe, if the images loaded.
16:18 <MTughan> Top image goes to http://sterlingdesktops.com/var/www/htdocs/lsnet/cpu.jpg
16:18 <KathrynM> oh good, it's not jsut me
16:18 <KathrynM> yeah, CoderForLife, but getting said sandwich here is neigh impossible
16:18 <Soul_keeper> opps sorry
16:18 <jackygrahamez> any suggestions on my uotd cell?
16:18 <CoderForLife> Soul_keeper's images don't load for me either
16:18 <MTughan> CoderForLife: Yeah, wrong image URL.
16:19 * KathrynM dives back into bed
16:19 <KathrynM> tgif
16:19 <MTughan> lol
16:19 * CoderForLife is dog tired
16:19 <jackygrahamez> well I'm out of here. Got to hit the tredmill
16:19 <Soul_keeper> try now
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16:21 <Soul_keeper> blastid
16:21 <CoderForLife> market went kathunk again today
16:22 <MTughan> Soul_keeper: Good.
16:22 <Soul_keeper> i seem to have discovered some kind of issue with it on my 64-bit system
16:22 <MTughan> Although I seem to get lots of JPEG artifacts.
16:23 <Soul_keeper> hmmm
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16:23 <Soul_keeper> might have to do with your browser not like the tables
16:24 <Soul_keeper> <td width="100%" height="" align="center" valign="center">
16:24 <Soul_keeper> i'll edit it and do a, "see what happens" with you if you got the time ...
16:25 <Soul_keeper> but i gotta make a phone call right now
16:25 <PovAddict> ew tables
16:27 <MTughan> Soul_keeper: I think you've got to modify test2.png again... I'm not just off the charts, I'm off the image now.
16:29 <Soul_keeper> that's an old image
16:30 <MTughan> boincrace/test2.png? I know test.png was retired, but it looked like test2 was still being updated.
16:30 <Soul_keeper> ohhh that
16:31 <Soul_keeper> i'll fix that later
16:41 <Soul_keeper> hmmm so compiling lsnetd with -m32 fixes it on 64 bit ...
16:41 <Soul_keeper> some kinda library issue i guess
16:42 <PovAddict> compiling with -m32 makes it not be 64 bit anymore
16:42 <CoderForLife> default size of data types
16:43 <CoderForLife> I'm not feeling so good - going to go lay down
16:43 <Soul_keeper> could be, i used sizeof on most things, might have let one or two pesky arrays laying around tho
16:43 <CoderForLife> laterz
16:43 <PovAddict> wouldn't surprise me if Soul_keeper's code does something that doesn't work if sizeof(void*) != 4
16:44 <Soul_keeper> :)
16:44 <Soul_keeper> how so ?
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16:58 <Soul_keeper> don't worry i'm good at figuring things out on my own
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17:38 <xcamel> sometimes I really hate paypal..
17:39 <PovAddict> www.paypalsucks.com
17:43 <Soul_keeper> yeah nobody ever gives me fre money ...
17:57 <Soul_keeper> so wtf
17:57 <Soul_keeper> is the idea to have no ints in any program ?
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18:04 <PovAddict> huh
18:07 <xcamel> anyway... 6.6.11 working pretty much across the board now
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18:24 <ComradeHaz> Hi all, is BOINC manager not connecting to client under KDE 4 a known issue?
18:24 <ComradeHaz> and is there afix?
18:25 <MTughan> What happens if you try to connect to the core client manually?
18:25 <ComradeHaz> how do I do it manually?
18:26 <MTughan> Have you set a custom password in gui_rpc_auth.cfg?
18:26 <ComradeHaz> nope
18:26 <MTughan> All right... In the BOINC data directory, there's a file called gui_rpc_auth.cfg.
18:26 <MTughan> In that file should be a random string of characters, either alphanumeric or hexadecimal, I don't remember.
18:27 <ComradeHaz> There's nothing
18:27 <MTughan> There's nothing in the file?
18:27 <ComradeHaz> No
18:27 <MTughan> You have permissions to read it?
18:27 <ComradeHaz> tom@Hades:~$ sudo cat /etc/boinc-client/gui_rpc_auth.cfg
18:27 <ComradeHaz> tom@Hades:~$
18:28 <MTughan> All right... In the manager, go to Advanced->Select Computer, and enter in localhost for the host name. Try leaving the password blank.
18:28 <ComradeHaz> oh I see what you're doing
18:28 <MTughan> Yeah.
18:28 <ComradeHaz> think I tried this
18:28 <Soul_keeper> i think i've tracked down the problem to my localtime()
18:29 <MTughan> And it didn't work?
18:29 <ComradeHaz> It didn't - but it did just now :D
18:29 <ComradeHaz> (I just got another version)
18:29 <ComradeHaz> so there is obviously an improvement
18:30 <MTughan> What are the permissions on /etc/boinc-client/gui_rpc_auth.cfg?
18:30 <ComradeHaz> what's the likely reason for this behaviour?
18:30 <MTughan> The manager looks for the password file and tries to read it in on startup, using that for the password to localhost.
18:31 <MTughan> Problem is that I don't know if it's getting the right file.
18:31 <ComradeHaz> tom@Hades:~$ ls -l /etc/boinc-client/gui_rpc_auth.cfg
18:31 <ComradeHaz> -rw-r----- 1 root boinc 1 2008-08-12 11:08 /etc/boinc-client/gui_rpc_auth.cfg
18:31 <Soul_keeper> hmmm then again ...
18:31 <MTughan> And you're probably not a member of boinc... Meaning that even if the manager were to find the right file, it couldn't read it upon startup.
18:32 <MTughan> Why the heck is it owned by root?
18:32 <ComradeHaz> the manager runs as me then, does it?
18:32 <MTughan> Yeah.
18:32 <ComradeHaz> uh
18:32 <ComradeHaz> this is debian
18:32 <ComradeHaz> I think that'd be normal
18:32 <MTughan> PovAddict: Any idea why gui_rpc_auth is owned by root?
18:33 <MTughan> If anything, it should be owned by boinc.
18:33 <PovAddict> because he ran the client as root the first time
18:33 <PovAddict> BAD
18:33 <ComradeHaz> o.O
18:33 <ComradeHaz> seems unlikely
18:33 <MTughan> Ah yeah, because the client creats gui_rpc_auth on first run...
18:33 <ComradeHaz> but ok
18:34 <ComradeHaz> would the client be started by root after install?
18:34 <PovAddict> what distro?
18:34 <Romulus> It has been said that what distro is this, PovAddict
18:34 <ComradeHaz> given I use a package manager
18:34 <ComradeHaz> Debian
18:34 <ComradeHaz> would make a certain amount of sense
18:34 <PovAddict> /etc/init.d/boinc-client stop, delete gui_rpc_auth, then /etc/init.d/boinc-client start
18:34 <ComradeHaz> are you suggesting I chown the file to me?
18:35 <ComradeHaz> oh
18:35 <ComradeHaz> ok
18:35 <ComradeHaz> hmm
18:35 <ComradeHaz> needed root to stop it :DS
18:35 <PovAddict> you'll need root to stop the root-owned file too :)
18:36 <ComradeHaz> booo
18:36 <ComradeHaz> tom@Hades:~$ /etc/init.d/boinc-client start
18:36 <ComradeHaz> * Starting BOINC core client: boinc/etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 273: runlevel: command not found
18:36 <MTughan> If root is needed to start the service, and gui_rpc_auth is still owned by root afterwards, means that the startup script probably doesn't use su properly.
18:36 <ComradeHaz> /etc/lsb-base-logging.sh: line 278: exit: Starting: numeric argument required
18:36 <ComradeHaz> Quite.
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18:37 <Soul_keeper> yes printf("asctime: %s\n", asctime(local)); fails
18:37 <ComradeHaz> brb - the missus is calling...
18:38 <MTughan> Why is it called runlevel... Used to determine current and previous runlevels.
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18:39 <MTughan> I think something wrong's happended to the Debian package. I see no reason why it would call runlevel.
18:40 <MTughan> Fedora's startup script doesn't use it in any case.
18:43 <PovAddict> ComradeHaz: wow that's a broken script
18:43 <PovAddict> expected better from debian
18:45 <ComradeHaz> hmm
18:45 <ComradeHaz> it's odd
18:45 <ComradeHaz> that's the 3rd version that's not worked
18:45 <ComradeHaz> and it's only been since I went to kde4
18:46 <ComradeHaz> I started off with whatever was in the unstable repos. That brok when I went to kde4 so I pulled in the experimental packages
18:46 <ComradeHaz> they got upgraded tonight which is why I thought I'd have another play.
18:47 <ComradeHaz> seems unlikely they'd mess up 3 times in a row (although kde4.2 is also still in experimental for the moment)
18:47 <ComradeHaz> so why does it work ok as root/
18:48 <ComradeHaz> tom@Hades:~$ sudo /etc/init.d/boinc-client start
18:48 <ComradeHaz> * Starting BOINC core client: boinc [ OK ]
18:48 <ComradeHaz> * Setting up scheduling for BOINC core client and children: [ OK ]
18:48 <MTughan> How long is the startup script? Can you post it on pastebin?
18:49 <PovAddict> ComradeHaz: then maybe you have boinc package from experimental?
18:50 <ComradeHaz> PovAddict: Can you clarify what you're asking?
18:50 <PovAddict> you enabled experimental to get kde 4.2
18:50 <PovAddict> maybe you got boinc package from experimental too, which has an...experimental version of boinc :)
18:51 <ComradeHaz> read again what I said about trying 3 versions...
18:51 <PovAddict> what do you mean it works ok for root?
18:51 <PovAddict> /etc/init.d scripts always need root
18:51 <PovAddict> none of the scripts in there will work from a normal account
18:51 <ComradeHaz> oh right, ok
18:53 <PovAddict> that seems ok
18:53 <PovAddict> anyway
18:53 <ComradeHaz> so how would I have run it as me
18:53 <PovAddict> it runs as 'boinc', and that's correct
18:54 <PovAddict> for the manager to work, your user account needs to be part of the boinc *group*
18:55 <ComradeHaz> w
18:55 <ComradeHaz> argh
18:55 <ComradeHaz> how do I see what groups I'm part of again?
18:55 <ComradeHaz> being dumb :D
18:55 <PovAddict> id
18:55 <ComradeHaz> ahhh
18:55 <ComradeHaz> no sign of boi
18:56 <ComradeHaz> nc
18:58 <PovAddict> edit /etc/group (as root), in the line starting with boinc:, add your username at the end
18:58 <PovAddict> will look like
18:58 <PovAddict> boinc:x:120:tom
18:58 <PovAddict> (the number may differ on your computer)
18:59 <ComradeHaz> should I not use usrmod?
18:59 <ComradeHaz> *usermod
18:59 <PovAddict> yeah or that
19:00 <ComradeHaz> ok
19:00 <ComradeHaz> so done that
19:01 <ComradeHaz> but I need to restart something I guess
19:01 <PovAddict> re-login
19:01 <ComradeHaz> bah
19:01 <ComradeHaz> ok
19:03 <ComradeHaz> not helped :D
19:03 <ComradeHaz> id now shows me part of group
19:03 <ComradeHaz> boinc-client running fine
19:03 <ComradeHaz> manager still not connecting as one'd expect
19:04 <PovAddict> bah, did you delete gui_rpc_auth.cfg?
19:04 <PovAddict> I forgot a detail...
19:04 <PovAddict> hmm nevermind actually
19:04 <ComradeHaz> heh
19:04 <ComradeHaz> it's worse now
19:04 <PovAddict> see the contents of the gui_rpc_auth.cfg file
19:04 <PovAddict> you should be able to see it
19:04 <ComradeHaz> can;t even connect by pointing at virtual host again
19:04 <ComradeHaz> uh
19:04 <ComradeHaz> localhost
19:05 <PovAddict> that's because I shouldn't have told you to delete it -_-'
19:05 <PovAddict> now BOINC generated a non-empty password on it
19:06 <ComradeHaz> uh
19:06 <ComradeHaz> indeed it didn't
19:06 <PovAddict> what are the permissions of gui_rpc_auth.cfg now?
19:06 <ComradeHaz> indeed, it didn;t recreate the file at all :D
19:06 <PovAddict> it didn't create the file? o.O
19:06 <PovAddict> argh >.<
19:06 <ComradeHaz> in /etc/boinc-client/ right?
19:07 <Soul_keeper> my 64-bit issue was just a matter of header location ..
19:07 <PovAddict> what a mess
19:07 <ComradeHaz> :D
19:07 <PovAddict> is the file in /etc/boinc-client/?
19:07 <ComradeHaz> My life all over
19:07 <ComradeHaz> nope
19:07 <PovAddict> is the file in /var/lib/boinc-client/?
19:07 <ComradeHaz> tom@Hades:~$ less /etc/boinc-client/
19:07 <ComradeHaz> cc_config.xml global_prefs_override.xml remote_hosts.cfg
19:07 <PovAddict> ls -l /var/lib/boinc-client/*.cfg
19:08 <ComradeHaz> tom@Hades:~$ ls -l /var/lib/boinc-client/*.cfg
19:08 <ComradeHaz> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 34 2009-02-26 23:26 /var/lib/boinc-client/gui_rpc_auth.cfg -> /etc/boinc-client/gui_rpc_auth.cfg
19:08 <ComradeHaz> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 34 2009-02-26 23:26 /var/lib/boinc-client/remote_hosts.cfg -> /etc/boinc-client/remote_hosts.cfg
19:08 <PovAddict> all my mistake... that file being owned by root was completely normal, I shouldn't have told you to delete it
19:08 <ComradeHaz> ok
19:08 <ComradeHaz> well it was blank...
19:08 <ComradeHaz> but gimme a sec
19:08 <ComradeHaz> I'll restore it :)
19:09 <PovAddict> sudo touch /etc/boinc-client/gui_rpc_auth.cfg; sudo chown root:boinc /etc/boinc-client/gui_rpc_auth.cfg;
19:09 <PovAddict> and sudo /etc/init.d/boinc-client restart
19:09 <ComradeHaz> oh, OK
19:11 <ComradeHaz> ok
19:11 <ComradeHaz> the file's back
19:11 <PovAddict> see if the manager connects by itself now
19:11 <MTughan> touch recreated it.
19:11 <ComradeHaz> owned by root
19:11 <PovAddict> group boinc?
19:11 <ComradeHaz> indeed
19:11 <ComradeHaz> but no
19:11 <ComradeHaz> client does not connect
19:11 <PovAddict> see if the manager connects by itself now; if it doesn't, at least it should work again giving the host manually now
19:12 <ComradeHaz> it does work manually....
19:12 <ComradeHaz> ok, so does that bring us to any conclusions as to whaere the problem lies?
19:12 <ComradeHaz> *where
19:13 <PovAddict> it's working like on any other computer now... :/
19:13 <PovAddict> now that I understand how things are
19:13 <ComradeHaz> it is? Should the manager notconnect autmagically to localhost?
19:13 <PovAddict> the only way to make it work is changing the manager code to read /etc/boinc-client/gui_rpc_auth.cfg
19:14 <PovAddict> instead of only gui_rpc_auth.cfg in the current directory
19:14 <ComradeHaz> symlink?
19:14 <PovAddict> symlink on your home directory would work
19:15 <ComradeHaz> ok, so where does it want to see the file?
19:15 <ComradeHaz> just in home?!
19:15 <PovAddict> in the *current* directory
19:15 <ComradeHaz> what does 'current' mean?
19:15 <PovAddict> put the symlink in home, but boincmgr would only connect if you run it from your home directory, not from anywhere else
19:15 <PovAddict> tom@Hades:~$
19:15 <ComradeHaz> oh
19:15 <PovAddict> ~ is the current directory there
19:15 <ComradeHaz> well I run it using Alt+F2
19:16 <PovAddict> I don't know what Alt-F2 uses as cwd, but it's probably home
19:16 <ComradeHaz> bugger knows where that runs it 'from'
19:16 <ComradeHaz> aye
19:17 <ComradeHaz> lolz
19:17 <ComradeHaz> if I run it from the 'kmenu' it runs just fine :/
19:17 <ComradeHaz> [insert bashful face here]
19:17 <ComradeHaz> wtf's with that?! :D
19:17 <ComradeHaz> that's a bit dodgy
19:17 <PovAddict> huh, did you make the link?
19:18 <ComradeHaz> nope
19:18 <PovAddict> maybe the kmenu entry uses /var/lib/boinc-client as cwd
19:18 <ComradeHaz> 'mind fu**!'
19:19 <ComradeHaz> ok
19:19 <ComradeHaz> so finally my central heating's not stuck on 100% :D
19:19 <ComradeHaz> now's the weather's warming up it's not so good :)
19:20 <ComradeHaz> Thanks for your help chaps
19:20 <ComradeHaz> if you want me to look into any of this in more details feel free to highlight me occasioanlly :)
19:21 <ComradeHaz> for now, though, I'm gonna hope the lady's not gone to sleep yet!
19:21 <ComradeHaz> night!
19:21 <PovAddict> :O
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19:42 <xcamel_> weird hit
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20:14 <xcamel> Support wind power - send another blowhard to washington.
20:28 <PovAddict> +1
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20:32 <PovAddict> still scraping boincstats?
20:33 <wdsmia> put me on it and it will max lol
20:34 <MTughan> Soul_keeper: If I keep up the GPU app, I should max it out in about 10 days. xD
20:34 <Soul_keeper> lol ok
20:35 <Soul_keeper> nvidia or ati ?
20:35 <MTughan> ATI.
20:35 <Soul_keeper> nice
20:35 <Soul_keeper> which project ?
20:35 <Romulus> Rumor has it which project is RS, Soul_keeper
20:35 <MTughan> MW.
20:35 <Soul_keeper> good work
20:35 <PovAddict> forget which project
20:35 <Romulus> I hear ya.
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20:53 <eidolon> hi folk s- i just installed the boinc client service on one of my debian linux hosts. i've been used to running boinc_lcient from the command line - how do i configure the service (running out of init.d) to have my personal key for projects?
20:54 <MTughan> Personal key? You want the client to store your data so you don't have to enter it when you attach to a project?
20:55 <eidolon> well... sort of. i want to run the boinc client as a service / client on my hosts - and run / stop when the machine boots.
20:55 <eidolon> it's running now
20:55 <eidolon> on another machine i have
20:55 <eidolon> but i have no clue how i configured it (it was like 2 years ago)
20:55 <PovAddict> what OS?
20:55 <PovAddict> writing an init.d script from scratch is not trivial
20:55 <eidolon> debian etch
20:55 <eidolon> it's already initted
20:55 <PovAddict> then what's the problem?
20:55 <eidolon> dbs@ketch:/etc/init.d$ ls -ldt boi*
20:55 <eidolon> -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 2741 2009-02-08 05:15 boinc-client
20:55 <MTughan> There's an init.d script available? You just need it to activate on startup?
20:56 <PovAddict> it should be already starting on boot then
20:56 <eidolon> right. but how do i set up what projects it works with, and what username to submit credit under?
20:56 <MTughan> The client stores that data.
20:56 <PovAddict> is it the first time you install it?
20:56 <PovAddict> oh let me guess
20:56 <eidolon> PovAddict: yep
20:56 <eidolon> aptitude install boinc_client
20:57 <eidolon> owait - it might be using /var/lib/boinc_client
20:57 <PovAddict> you have been running the client manually, god knows from what directory, and giving switches to the client itself to attach projects?
20:58 <eidolon> PovAddict: honestly, i don't remember setting it up. so lets assume i'm starting from scratch?
20:58 <PovAddict> ah k
20:58 <PovAddict> do you have GUI?
20:59 <eidolon> the machine it's running on is headless. but i can probably attach remotely
20:59 <eidolon> oh that would make sense wouldn't it
20:59 * eidolon has NO BRAIN tonoight.
20:59 <PovAddict> see if BOINC is already running: ps aux | grep boinc
20:59 <eidolon> it is
20:59 * eidolon just checked
21:00 <eidolon> sec, i'll install the boinc client on my local machine, then i'll connect remotely.
21:00 <PovAddict> no need
21:00 <eidolon> no?
21:00 <Romulus> I guess no is I supposed to, eidolon
21:00 * eidolon sits on the bot.
21:00 <PovAddict> boinc_cmd --get_project_status
21:00 <MTughan> forget no
21:00 <Romulus> Okay.
21:00 <eidolon> no projects.
21:00 <PovAddict> eidolon: stay sitting there
21:00 * eidolon is sitting. *nod*
21:00 <PovAddict> that's *good*, means boinc_cmd can connect :)
21:00 <eidolon> :)
21:01 <eidolon> i'm sshed into that box.
21:01 <eidolon> next? :)
21:01 <PovAddict> yeah but sometimes there's auth problems connecting to the client even on local machine
21:01 <PovAddict> anyway
21:01 <eidolon> k
21:01 <eidolon> oi.
21:01 <PovAddict> assuming you already have an account on the project
21:01 <eidolon> yeah
21:02 <eidolon> okay, hang ona sec. i have to find out what projects i'm doing and which accounts i'll use
21:02 <eidolon> i know i have a folding and a seti login
21:02 <PovAddict> it will print your account key (which is *secret*)
21:02 <PovAddict> then
21:02 <PovAddict> huh, folding isn't BOINC-based
21:02 <eidolon> ORLY?
21:02 <eidolon> i wonder hwat i'm running on that laptop
21:03 <eidolon> might not be folding
21:03 <eidolon> it's a windows box that has twisty graphic images when in screensave mode. not the rolling seti@home image
21:03 <eidolon> rosetta
21:03 <eidolon> my bad, sorry.
21:04 <eidolon> found my acocunt key for rosetta. wasn't there something about a cross project key i should be using?
21:04 <eidolon> (i have a boincstats team i'm a part of, i want to makesure credit here goes into the team)
21:04 <MTughan> Cross project ID? Not used here ATM.
21:05 <MTughan> AKA, CPID.
21:05 <eidolon> oka, so if i just use my rosetta account key, i should be golden, yeth?
21:06 <MTughan> I believe so, provided you haven't changed your password on Rosetta.
21:06 <PovAddict> account keys are permanent
21:07 <Romulus> Title: Rosetta@home (at boinc.bakerlab.org)
21:07 <eidolon> that looks promising.
21:09 <jasong1> How do you get CentOS to send the output of a command to a text file? usually, I just type <command> >> <textfile name>.txt , but that gets me bupkus
21:09 <eidolon> awesome - get_project_status on both macines is showing my login name and my team name.
21:09 <eidolon> thank you very much, pov and mt :)
21:09 <eidolon> jasong1: >> redirects stdout
21:09 <PovAddict> jasong1: that's the way, command >> filename.txt (to *append*)
21:09 <eidolon> PovAddict: it'll create the file if it doesn't exist.
21:10 <PovAddict> or command > filename.txt (to overwrite the file if it already exists)
21:10 <eidolon> but, if the script is generating to stderr, it won't redirect.
21:10 <eidolon> you need 2>&1
21:10 <MTughan> It's possible to redirect both.
21:10 <jasong1> What do I do with '2>&1'?
21:10 <jasong1> Sorry, I'm dense
21:11 <jasong1> Do I just put that at the end
21:11 <MTughan> <command> 2>&1 <textfile>
21:11 <eidolon> read that
21:11 <jasong1> okay, thanks
21:11 <eidolon> np.
21:14 <eidolon> hey PovAddict - on one of the machines i'm runnig on, boinc_client --get_project_status gives me an unknown option response
21:14 <eidolon> but it's running the same os as i have here.
21:14 <PovAddict> it's boinc_cmd, not boinc_client
21:14 <eidolon> DOH!
21:14 <PovAddict> never run the _client by hand
21:14 * eidolon hides.
21:15 <eidolon> "Authorization failure: -155"
21:15 <MTughan> I'd say it can't read gui_rpc_auth.cfg.
21:15 <eidolon> uh oh
21:15 <eidolon> ketch kernel: CPU3: Temperature above threshold
21:16 <PovAddict> it's gonna blow up!
21:16 <PovAddict> boinc_cmd --set_run_mode never
21:16 <PovAddict> to pause it
21:17 <MTughan> It's not going to blow up... >_>
21:17 <eidolon> nuts.
21:17 <eidolon> i was wondering if cooling was going to be apropriate for this machine
21:17 <eidolon> apparently not.
21:18 <xcamel> overzealous sensors
21:18 <eidolon> well, it cooled off quickly.
21:18 <eidolon> maybe.
21:18 <eidolon> i just got a 'temp/speed normal' notification.
21:18 <xcamel> set fans to max
21:19 <eidolon> oddly, thermal_zone isn't showing any temperature sensors.
21:19 <eidolon> so i'm wondering wher eit's getting this info.
21:19 <eidolon> probably the cpu itself is causing a kernel trap
21:19 <eidolon> cuz these sure are kernel messages :)
21:19 <xcamel> or throttling
21:19 <MTughan> Yeah, I suppose the kernel could detect throttling.
21:20 <eidolon> well, i was getting CPU0: Running in modulated clock mode
21:20 <xcamel> yup
21:21 <xcamel> same diff
21:21 <eidolon> these is a dual Xeon 2gig mobo. prolem is hyperthreading is enabled. i wodner if boinc just thought there were 4 cpus and tried to run 4 jobs.
21:21 <eidolon> even still. it shouldn't have overheated that fast :(
21:21 <xcamel> it can/will/does
21:21 <MTughan> What heatsink?
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21:21 <eidolon> passive heatsink with vanes. a pair of 44mm fans blowing across them - this is ina 1U chassis. i'm doing burnin on this box before installing it int eh datacenter.
21:22 <eidolon> these are -old- xeons. non-64bit
21:22 <xcamel> sounds like my box 'forge'
21:22 <MTughan> Provided the passive heatsink can cool it, the thermal paste was applied right?
21:22 <eidolon> http://www.flickr.com/photos/planet-geek/3267591621/ <-- ketch's cpuinfo screen
21:23 <xcamel> old dual ht xeons
21:23 <eidolon> MTughan: possibly? i haven't popped the coolers
21:23 <eidolon> http://www.flickr.com/photos/planet-geek/3214217684/ <-- that's the motherboard
21:23 <MTughan> They came preapplied?
21:23 <eidolon> yea
21:23 <eidolon> these machines were pulled from production.
21:23 <eidolon> they were in a big computing cluster.
21:23 <PovAddict> the thermal paste evaporated? :P
21:24 <eidolon> heh
21:24 <eidolon> i think i'll add another pair of cooling fans (the ones i have are a little wimpy) - that'll give 4 fans blowing across the cpus, and i'll make sure i seal up the other side of the case to get devent airflow. i can't think of doing anythingbetter.
21:24 <eidolon> and i won't run them full tilt :)
21:25 <MTughan> You can always tell BOINC to only run on 50% of the processors.
21:25 <PovAddict> BOINC has throttling
21:25 <PovAddict> but you'd have to set it on the project webpage
21:25 <eidolon> no, it's okay. i -wanted- to do this.
21:25 <MTughan> Rather inefficient throttling as I remember.
21:25 <PovAddict> (good luck changing local settings without a GUI)
21:25 <eidolon> i wanted to see if i could overheat the cpus - in case these went to load in production, i wanted to know what would happen.
21:26 <eidolon> answered the question "Is there sufficient cooling in this chassis for these cpu's to run full tilt?"
21:26 <eidolon> answer: no.
21:26 <xcamel> damn my cable is slow tonight
21:26 <xcamel> get a big old 120mm fan and set it on top...
21:27 <eidolon> no space in the case to do that.
21:27 <xcamel> take the cover off..
21:27 <eidolon> honstly, a pair of 40mm's blowing across each cpu should cover it.
21:27 <eidolon> xcamel: gonna make it hard to mount it in the rack like that ;)
21:29 <xcamel> but you're not gonna be running boinc on it when in the rack, right?
21:29 <eidolon> not if it keeps overheating :)
21:30 <eidolon> this machine'll be an application host - running tomcat applications.
21:30 <eidolon> and some php apps.
21:30 <xcamel> the thin profile amd cpu fans would do it..
21:31 <eidolon> i'm wondering. case flow is seriously important yes? i need to make sure there's one path through the case for air, and it draws from the front (cool area), blows across the cpu vanes, and can only exhaust out the back, yes? I know that part of the internal case is open - it may be 'swirling' in there.
21:53 * eidolon kills channel chat.
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22:06 <DrBashir> hi
22:07 <DrBashir> 27-Feb-2009 04:03:44 [---] [error] GUI RPC bind failed: 98 | gstate.init() failed: -180
22:08 <DrBashir> debian lenny 5.0 - boinc --version -> 6.2.14 i686-pc-linux-gnu
22:08 <DrBashir> what can i do?
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22:13 <MTughan> Looks like that means the BOINC client couldn't attach to the TCP port used for communication.
22:13 <MTughan> Do you have two copies of BOINC running on the same machine?
22:15 <Soul_keeper> gettum MTughan !
22:15 <MTughan> ?
22:20 <MTughan> DrBashir?
22:21 <jasong1> he probably went to hang out with Quark
22:21 *** jasong1 is now known as jasong
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22:54 <efc> moo
23:01 <jasong> Just for information: Obama has released his 2010 budget plans, if I'm reading the time correctly the article was posted about a half-hour ago
23:01 <Romulus> Title: BBC NEWS | Business | Obama unveils his $3.6tn budget (at news.bbc.co.uk)
23:03 <efc> I'm going into business selling the govt commas and zeros
23:03 <jasong> Do Romulus and DrBashir get along? I mean, a talking planet from the Star Trek universe is bad enough. But combine it with a headstrong young doctor from the same universe and things could get interesting
23:03 <efc> Mil-Spec'd, of course
23:04 <jasong> I haven't read the article just yet, doing that now :)
23:05 <jasong> Hey, if they express the budget in Euros, the numbers are about 30% less, so they don't seem quite as horrible
23:06 <jasong> ;)
23:06 <efc> How bout Zimbabwe dollars..
23:07 <jasong> Would that make the numbers more or less?
23:07 <MTughan> Incredibly high.
23:07 * jasong doesn't know anything about Zimbabwe
23:07 <jasong> oh wow
23:07 <MTughan> Zimbabwe dollars are almost worthless.
23:08 <efc> even after they devalued it 100 billion to one or whatever
23:09 <MTughan> 1 USD = 91.3900 ZWD
23:09 <MTughan> &math 787000000000 * 91.39
23:09 <Romulus> MTughan: 71923930000000
23:09 <efc> I don't think you can really pin much of an exact rate on that one
23:09 <MTughan> 71,923,930,000,000
23:10 <MTughan> 71.9 trillion Zimbabwe dollars is the value of the US stimulus bill.
23:11 <MTughan> And that government just devalued it so 1 trillion "old" dollars is equal to 1 "new" dollar.
23:11 <MTughan> 71,923,930,000,000,000,000,000,000 in the old dollars.
23:11 <MTughan> 71.9 septillion then. ;)
23:12 <efc> But you could burn $1 ZWD notes as fuel, cheaper than any fuel
23:13 <efc> "I shall not crucify this nation on a Cross of Paper!"
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23:51 <MTughan> 'lo Nickuwo