IRC logs of #boinc for Monday, 2009-07-13

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02:17 <jasong1> http://largehardoncollider.com/

02:17 <Romulus> Title: The Large HardOn Collider (at largehardoncollider.com)

02:19 <efc> The Internet: Maybe There are parts of it We Don't Need

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05:56 <CoderForLife> neat pic  http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

05:56 <Romulus> Title: Astronomy Picture of the Day (at antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov)

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06:22 <wdsmia> &wx 50319

06:22 <Romulus> wdsmia: Temperature: 61.3F / 16.3C | Humidity: 96% | Pressure: 30.05in / 1017.5hPa (Steady) | Conditions: Partly Cloudy | Wind Direction: NE | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Today - Partly sunny. High in the mid 80s. East wind near 10 mph.; Tonight - Partly cloudy until early morning then becoming mostly cloudy. A 20 percent chance of thunderstorms after midnight. Low in the upper 60s. Southeast (1 more message)

06:22 <wdsmia> &more

06:22 <Romulus> wdsmia: wind 5 to 10 mph.; Tuesday - Mostly cloudy with a 50 percent chance of thunderstorms. Windy. High in the mid 80s. Southeast wind 15 to 20 mph increasing to 20 to 30 mph in the afternoon.;

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07:14 <hawmps> 'lo

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09:06 <rodrigoflores> Hi

09:06 <rodrigoflores> I submitted a job using boinc_submit

09:07 <rodrigoflores> and aborted it using boinc_submit --abort jobID

09:07 <rodrigoflores> but in my client, it still runs...

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09:08 <rodrigoflores> I have to do anything else to stop a job?

09:20 <Nickuwo> rodrigoflores: was it running already when you did -abort?

09:21 <rodrigoflores> Nickuwo, yes

09:22 <Nickuwo> okay, -abort wont stop a task on a client if im not mistaken. it'll only prevent the job from being sent out again.

09:22 <Nickuwo> the client might stop the job if you force it to connect to the server again, but im not exactly sure

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10:45 <hawmps> &wx 12020

10:45 <Romulus> hawmps: Temperature: 68.4F / 20.2C | Humidity: 55% | Pressure: 29.64in / 1003.6hPa (Falling) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: NNW | Wind Speed: 6.0mph / 9.7km/h ; Today - Partly sunny. Highs in the mid 70s. West winds 10 to 15 mph with gusts up to 25 mph.; Tonight - Partly cloudy. Lows around 50. West winds 10 to 15 mph... becoming southwest around 5 mph after midnight.; Tuesday - Partly (1 more message)

10:45 <hawmps> &more

10:45 <Romulus> hawmps: sunny. Highs in the mid 70s. West winds 10 to 15 mph with gusts up to 25 mph.;

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11:46 <hawmps> spork >> 194.246.101.199

11:46 <PovAddict> hi mw

11:46 <mweltin> morn'n pov

11:46 <hawmps> looks like a zombie bot

11:48 <PovAddict> hawmps: spork 77.23.217.176

11:49 <PovAddict> doing stupid web crawling w/o looking at robots.txt

11:50 <hawmps> thanks

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11:55 <PovAddict> wild world out there in the internets

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12:08 * FreeLarry looks around room - guesses he built a few nice machines but really doesn't know how too use them productively - hence boinc

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12:14 <FreeLarry> anyone know what happened to nqueen? been down for last couple of days it seems

12:14 <FreeLarry> cant even get web pages

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13:29 <desti> http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/366207main_mlas-launch_full.jpg

13:29 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/kjr5dt> (at www.nasa.gov)

13:34 <hawmps> what is that?

13:34 <Romulus> or what drives many of the ATA crowd

13:36 <desti> test of the next generation launch rescue system

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14:18 <hawmps> ah.. ok

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14:54 <MTughan> wdsmia: I saw your team catching up, but I was quiet because I was whisked away by my family for a couple days, without me realizing I would have no Internet or even a laptop to use.

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16:12 <xcamel> 'lo

16:12 <jackygrahamez> hi

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16:55 <ring0> &whatis platform_list

16:55 <Romulus> ring0: "platform_list" could be http://boinc.berkeley.edu/download_all.php

17:05 <ring0> hi, i'm running boinc-client version 6.4.5 on linux with everything working fine, even my nvidia gpu has been recognised as coprocessor. but somehow when clicking on a button like your results under websites in boinc-manager, it opens the website in w3m (a terminal browser) not in firefox, which is set as default browser. can i configure boinc-manager to use firefox?

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17:16 <PovAddict> ring0: that's messed up in all operating systems

17:16 <PovAddict> not BOINC, I mean the operating systems are messed up

17:16 <PovAddict> a dozen different places saying what your preferred browser is and they're rarely in sync

17:16 <PovAddict> do you use gnome?

17:16 <ring0> yes

17:16 <MTughan_Birthday> Except on OS X, where the process is already defined. (Disclaimer: I'm an OS X dev)

17:17 <ring0> it appears to work with all apps i use except for boinc-manager

17:20 <PovAddict> it seems to use the "www-browser" symlink from the "alternatives" system

17:20 <PovAddict> in my computer, there are three browsers registered as alternatives for www-browser

17:21 <PovAddict> all three are console mode :/

17:21 <ring0> how can i figure out which alternatives are set on my machine?

17:22 <PovAddict> ah there is a different alternative called x-www-browser, for graphical browsers

17:22 * PovAddict looks in wxWidgets source code

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17:23 <ring0> ok, i see

17:24 <PovAddict> do you have "xdg-open"?

17:24 <ring0> yes, but i've never used it

17:25 <PovAddict> did you get the manager from boinc.berkeley.edu website?

17:25 <PovAddict> or from some distro-specific package?

17:25 <ring0> from the berkeley.edu website

17:25 <jackygrahamez_> hi

17:26 <PovAddict> RomW: what version of wxWidgets do you use for the official mgr package?

17:27 <ring0> 2.6.3

17:27 <PovAddict> 2.6? that's old... (where did you get that info btw?)

17:27 <PovAddict> ring0: run this in a terminal: gconftool-2 --get /desktop/gnome/applications/browser/exec

17:28 <ring0> i clicked Help - About Boinc Manager in the manager itself

17:28 <PovAddict> ah, didn't know wx version was there

17:29 <ring0> xdg-open worked from the terminal

17:29 <PovAddict> yeah but wxWidgets 2.6 doesn't use that anyway, I just checked... seems to be quite new

17:30 <ring0> http://nopaste.com/p/aJSIeJw9x

17:30 <Romulus> Title: gconftool-2 --get /desktop/... - nopaste.com (beta) (at nopaste.com)

17:30 <PovAddict> huh...

17:34 <PovAddict> ok, yeah...

17:34 <PovAddict> wx2.6 is way too stupid to figure out the correct browser

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17:36 <ring0> can we teach him a bit?

17:36 <PovAddict> by upgrading :P

17:36 <ring0> :)

17:36 <PovAddict> or

17:36 <PovAddict> the BROWSER environment variable

17:37 <PovAddict> try from shell: env BROWSER=/usr/bin/firefox ./run_manager

17:37 <PovAddict> see if buttons open firefox

17:39 <ring0> env: ./run_manager: No such file or directory

17:40 <PovAddict> well, run it where you installed boinc :P

17:40 <ring0> worth a shot :)

17:46 <ring0> find returns no file named run_manager on my system

17:46 <ring0> could it be boincmgr?

17:48 <ring0> alright, boincmgr worked, as did the buttons with opening the links in firefox

17:51 <ring0> could i just add "env BROWSER=/usr/bin/firefox" in front of the launcher command?

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17:54 <PovAddict> probably

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18:00 <ring0> it's working. i just added the environment for the launcher. thank you very much for your help

18:08 <desti> 40 minutes to go http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/launch/launch_blog.html

18:08 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/3xqsq4> (at www.nasa.gov)

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18:17 <Tank_Master> 40?

18:17 <Tank_Master> no, there 34 min

18:32 <CoderForLife> hello

18:32 <CoderForLife> &wx 45140

18:32 <Romulus> CoderForLife: Temperature: 86.3F / 30.2C | Humidity: 49% | Pressure: 29.93in / 1013.4hPa (Steady) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: NNW | Wind Speed: 5.8mph / 9.3km/h ; Tonight - Mostly clear. Lows in the upper 50s. Northeast winds 5 to 10 mph.; Tuesday - Mostly sunny. Highs in the mid 80s. East winds around 5 mph.; Tuesday Night - Mostly clear in the evening...then becoming partly cloudy. (1 more message)

18:32 <CoderForLife> &more

18:32 <Romulus> CoderForLife: Lows in the mid 60s. Southeast winds around 5 mph.;

18:32 <CoderForLife> how boring - perfect days

18:33 <Tank_Master> howdy cfl

18:34 <CoderForLife> hey Tank_Master

18:34 <Tank_Master> looks like they wont be launching the shuttle today

18:35 <CoderForLife> they don't need a ligtning strike shutting down engines in the boost phase

18:36 <Tank_Master> its just a fire cracker, what engines?

18:36 <Tank_Master> :P

18:36 <CoderForLife> the solids are that - can't turn them off

18:39 <CoderForLife> still a neat pic  http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

18:39 <Romulus> Title: Astronomy Picture of the Day (at antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov)

18:41 <Tank_Master> launch scrubbed

18:41 <Tank_Master> that is a sweet pic

18:42 <wdsmia> &wx 50319

18:42 <Romulus> wdsmia: Temperature: 80.5F / 26.9C | Humidity: 61% | Pressure: 29.98in / 1015.1hPa (Falling) | Conditions: Scattered Clouds | Wind Direction: South | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Tonight - Partly cloudy. Low in the mid 60s. Southeast wind 5 to 10 mph.; Tuesday - Mostly cloudy. A chance of thunderstorms in the morning... then a slight chance of thunderstorms in the afternoon. High in the mid 80s. (1 more message)

18:42 <wdsmia> &more

18:42 <Romulus> wdsmia: Southeast wind 10 to 15 mph with gusts to around 25 mph. Chance of thunderstorms 30 percent.; Tuesday Night - Partly cloudy. A 30 percent chance of thunderstorms through midnight. Low in the mid 60s. South wind 5 to 15 mph shifting to the southwest after midnight.;

18:45 <CoderForLife> hey Doug

18:46 <wdsmia> *lo Donnie

18:47 <CoderForLife> you don't look like my Mommie

18:47 <wdsmia> lol

18:48 <xcamel> re-hi

18:48 <Tank_Master> re-wb

18:49 <wdsmia> *lo Jay

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18:50 <CoderForLife> hey Jay

18:53 <CoderForLife> bbl

18:57 * xcamel yawns

18:57 <xcamel> still beat from yesterday...

18:57 <xcamel> http://picasaweb.google.com/oldcorvettes/CurtisLumber2009CarShow#

18:57 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/mm976f> (at picasaweb.google.com)

19:04 <xcamel> we cut off the registrations at 358, and had another 50 show up anyway...

19:05 <wdsmia> so where is the pic of the CJ-2A

19:07 <xcamel> not posted yet

19:07 <xcamel> and it's a JK/X

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22:41 <PovAddict> heh, guess what...

22:41 <PovAddict> new credit discussion started in the 'lists :)

22:48 <efc> Uh oh, put your helmet on

22:49 <PovAddict> it's a project admin posting

22:49 <PovAddict> his final question is

22:49 <PovAddict> "What have other projects done to avoid this kind of disaster?  Can we somehow feasibly renormalize the credit given out?  Is there any hope?"

22:49 <PovAddict> I'm posting a long email describing credit scenarios, to prove that there is, in fact, no hope

22:50 <Nickuwo> which lists?

22:50 <PovAddict> boinc_projects

22:50 <PovAddict> there is no reply yet

22:50 <Nickuwo> hmm

22:50 <PovAddict> it was AQUA@Home admin

22:50 <PovAddict> zombie67: ping

22:50 <PovAddict> Tank_Master: ping

22:50 <Nickuwo> i c

22:51 <Nickuwo> do you get it before everyone else?

22:51 <PovAddict> no

22:51 <PovAddict> well

22:51 <PovAddict> maybe your email service is being slower than mine :)

22:51 <Nickuwo> right on

22:59 * efc always thought actual instruction counts would be fair

23:00 <PovAddict> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2008/03/17.html

23:00 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/2ra6w2> (at www.joelonsoftware.com)

23:00 <PovAddict> efc: CPU cache misses

23:00 <efc> I mean floating point operation counts

23:00 <efc> How many adds, multiplies, etc

23:01 <PovAddict> memory-heavy apps take longer, users *deserve* more credits for running those

23:01 <PovAddict> also, optimized apps... you do the same science with less instructions and get less credits?

23:01 <PovAddict> quoting Joel Spolsky, in the above link (who was talking about IE8 and web standards, but this seems fitting):

23:01 <PovAddict> "There is no solution. Each solution is terribly wrong. [...] It’s not a fine line. It’s a line of negative width. There is no place to walk. They are damned if they do and damned if they don’t."

23:03 <efc> It seems a decent compromise.

23:11 <zombie67> sup?

23:11 <PovAddict> know anything about AQUA, specifically, credits?

23:11 <zombie67> hah!

23:11 <zombie67> yeah

23:11 <PovAddict> or forum drama?

23:11 <zombie67> mucho drama

23:11 <PovAddict> please fill us in

23:12 <zombie67> they have a MT and GPU app

23:12 <zombie67> both seem to calculate improperly with the stock BOINC method

23:12 <zombie67> WAY too much or too small

23:13 <zombie67> anyway, so they were bullied into implementing fixed credits IMMEDIATELY

23:13 <zombie67> and messed it up

23:14 <zombie67> with the stock method, LAF was able to claim 500M credits with a single task

23:14 <zombie67> anyway, I am sure it will all get worked out eventually

23:14 <zombie67> BUT

23:14 <PovAddict> did the admin take credits off people who got too much?

23:15 <zombie67> for those couple of tasks?  sure

23:15 <PovAddict> I see someone with a RAC of thirty-five million O_O

23:15 <zombie67> but then this weekend, another fiasco

23:15 <zombie67> using fixed credits

23:15 <zombie67> anyway, this is the REAL problem

23:16 <zombie67> the technical aspect of running a project are relativly easey

23:16 <zombie67> it is the CREDIT aspect, and how it all relates to OTHER projects that keeps killing new project admins

23:16 <zombie67> there is no training for that

23:17 <zombie67> their hearts are in the right place, but they just have no experience or perspective

23:18 <zombie67> and I am sure they are now wondering if BOINC is worth the trouble

23:18 <zombie67> less pain to ask for a grant for dedicated resources

23:18 <PovAddict> I think MT and GPU isn't worth the trouble; better to stick to the normal stuff

23:19 <zombie67> that is another thing

23:19 <zombie67> the MT for win is wicked fast compared to GPU

23:19 <zombie67> which is odd

23:20 <zombie67> but the effeciency of the code and compilers for each are not similar

23:20 <PovAddict> faster than multiplied by number of cores?

23:20 <PovAddict> that is, faster than 2x when using two threads?

23:20 <zombie67> MT does it in about 8 hours

23:20 <zombie67> GPU CUDA in hundreds

23:21 <PovAddict> and "normal"?

23:21 <zombie67> and then THAT gets back to how do you award credits when you make an app so much faster?

23:21 <zombie67> what is "normal"?

23:21 <PovAddict> exactly!

23:21 <PovAddict> CPU non-MT

23:21 <PovAddict> isn't there one?

23:21 <zombie67> not any more

23:21 <zombie67> only MT and CUDA

23:22 <zombie67> CUDA and non-win MT are similar....win MT is many times faster

23:22 <zombie67> probably due to compiler

23:22 <zombie67> intel vs gcc

23:22 <zombie67> brb

23:24 <zombie67> the only way is to try to count transactions, which is also voodoo

23:25 <zombie67> which is what aqua tried to do with fixed credits, but that blew up too.

23:26 <zombie67> anyway, that is the all-too-familiar story for aqua

23:28 <zombie67> between all the message board bitching, and DA, I am sure the credit situation will drop down to a dull roar

23:29 <PovAddict> zombie67: Neil posted a scream for help in boinc_projects

23:29 <PovAddict> subject is "Catastrophe is looming; desperately need advice"

23:29 <PovAddict> 'nuff said, I guess...

23:30 <zombie67> wow, lemme read

23:30 <PovAddict> I'm about to reply with the two credit scenarios I told you about

23:31 <PovAddict> 1. optimized apps, and 2. how it gets even more hairy when other kinds of processors (GPUs) are involved

23:32 <zombie67> the first problem is with BOINC itself

23:32 <zombie67> the GPU credits are based on CPU time.  How messed up is that?

23:32 <zombie67> Also, I think there is a problem with the way MT tasks claim

23:33 <zombie67> if they MT task uses (say) 4 cores, I don't think it takes the number of cores used into consideration.

23:33 <zombie67> Still, that leaves open the cheating problem

23:42 <efc> Actual operation counts.. embrace it.

23:43 <PovAddict> how do you count them?

23:43 <efc> Some algorithms you could figure it out by the size of the problem, others you'd have to approximate

23:43 <efc> I'd say within 10% is pretty good

23:44 <efc> Of course there are other problems, like you have to agree on a weighting to the operations

23:44 <efc> an FMUL is worth 1.5 FADDs, etc

23:45 <efc> And no, it doesn't give much incentive to optimize if all you care about is credits

23:45 <efc> I guess it would actually incentivize to UNoptimize, but then if you're cheating, just go ahead and cheat

23:47 <zombie67> cheating by who?  The project or the contributors?

23:48 <efc> rogue recompilers

23:48 <PovAddict> no, it would give incentive to optimize...

23:48 <zombie67> ah!  evil admins!

23:48 <PovAddict> if you make the app do the same job with less instructions, you won't get proportionately less credits... how would BOINC / the project / the admins / anyone know how many instructions you managed to remove?

23:49 <efc> Like I said, if you can recompile, and you want to cheat, there are easier ways to cheat than that

23:50 <efc> You're saying they could optimize the app, making it take less instructions, but report the old, higher count?

23:50 <zombie67> like I said, cheaters tend to be on the client end, not the admin end

23:50 <zombie67> admins tend to want speed

23:50 <PovAddict> efc: well, if the app itself reports how many instructions it has, then you don't need to optimize at all

23:51 <PovAddict> just make it report a hundred times more :P

23:51 <efc> Yeah. Well, the s@h cobblestone count is basically a fudged instruction count. You could cheat easily, but the other clients would hopefully catch you.

23:52 <PovAddict> there's a Spanish expression that's like... "made the law, made the cheat"

23:52 <PovAddict> there's probably a proper English version of it

23:52 <zombie67> clients doing the policing??

23:53 <PovAddict> zombie67: well, it would be harder to cheat than with benchmark-based credits, but just as possible

23:53 <efc> thats what the confirmation/verification stage is doing (can't remember the name)

23:54 <zombie67> my point:  efc said that the clients would be looking out for cheating codes from the projects.  WTF??

23:54 <efc> No, the server does it

23:54 <efc> Now

23:54 <efc> Validation I think they call it?

23:54 <PovAddict> zombie67: no, the app would, like it always does, claim some number of credits

23:55 <PovAddict> validation would compare to other apps to make sure it's not an insane number

23:55 <zombie67> EFC:  You could cheat easily, but the other clients would hopefully catch you.

23:55 <PovAddict> everyone running FreeHAL is cheating, nobody caught them

23:56 <zombie67> pov, you are talking about comparing tasks from the samw WU, which does not exist for projects like AQUA

23:56 <PovAddict> ahaa! that's a problem :)

23:58 <efc> sorry, i didn't word it very well.

23:58 <zombie67> not a "problem".  It is a "typical situation"

23:58 <PovAddict> using no validation?

23:58 <PovAddict> well, no replication

23:58 <zombie67> using no comparison for validation

23:59 <efc> no replication... i think you're hosed.

23:59 <zombie67> no replication means you can't use the stoopid boinc credit method

23:59 <PovAddict> good projects waste 50% of the CPU time by using replication, and get 10x more users by giving good credits, managing the project well, etc :)

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