IRC logs of #boinc for Tuesday, 2009-08-04

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00:06 <CoderForLife> &wx 45140

00:06 <Romulus> CoderForLife: Temperature: 68.7F / 20.4C | Humidity: 82% | Pressure: 29.69in / 1005.3hPa (Steady) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: West | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Overnight - Partly cloudy. A chance of showers. Lows in the mid 60s. South winds around 5 mph. Chance of rain 30 percent.; Tuesday - Mostly cloudy with a chance of showers and thunderstorms. Highs in the mid 80s. Southwest (1 more message)

00:06 <CoderForLife> &more

00:06 <Romulus> CoderForLife: winds 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 50 percent.; Tuesday Night - Mostly cloudy in the evening...then becoming partly cloudy. A chance of showers and thunderstorms. Lows in the upper 60s. West winds around 5 mph. Chance of rain 50 percent.;

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00:22 <CoderForLife> b2b

00:22 <PovAddict> back to... business?

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02:15 <efc> &wx 31088

02:15 <Romulus> efc: Temperature: 73F / 23C | Humidity: 100% | Pressure: 30.04in / 1017hPa (Steady) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: North | Wind Speed: 0mph / 0km/h ; Rest of Tonight - Partly cloudy. Lows around 70. Light and variable winds.; Tuesday - Mostly sunny with a 20 percent chance of showers and thunderstorms in the afternoon. Highs in the mid 90s. Southwest winds 5 to 10 mph.; Tuesday Night - (1 more message)

02:15 <efc> &more

02:15 <Romulus> efc: Partly cloudy. Lows in the lower 70s. Light and variable winds.;

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04:58 <CoderForLife> yes PovAddict

04:58 <CoderForLife> back to the business of being in bed

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06:33 <wdsmia> &wx 50319

06:33 <Romulus> wdsmia: Temperature: 68.5F / 20.3C | Humidity: 96% | Pressure: 29.78in / 1008.4hPa (Falling) | Conditions: Overcast | Wind Direction: WNW | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Today - Partly sunny. High in the upper 80s. Northeast wind 5 to 10 mph.; Tonight - Partly cloudy. Low in the upper 50s. Northeast wind 5 to 10 mph.; Wednesday - Partly sunny. A 20 percent chance of thunderstorms in the (1 more message)

06:33 <wdsmia> &more

06:33 <Romulus> wdsmia: afternoon. High in the lower 80s. East wind 5 to 10 mph.;

06:43 <hawmps> 'lo

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08:12 <hawmps> spork >>

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09:21 <hawmps> hmmm..

09:22 <hawmps> tough splits..

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10:32 <Tank_Master> &wx 97123

10:32 <Tank_Master> &more

10:32 <Romulus> Tank_Master: Temperature: 57.7F / 14.3C | Humidity: 82% | Pressure: 30.02in / 1016.5hPa (Rising) | Conditions: Partly Cloudy | Wind Direction: ESE | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Today - Partly sunny. Highs around 85. Light wind becoming west 5 to 10 mph by the afternoon.; Tonight - Partly cloudy. Lows 55 to 60. Southwest wind 10 to 15 mph...becoming light wind after midnight.; Wednesday - Partly (1 more message)

10:32 <Romulus> Tank_Master: sunny. Highs around 80. Light wind becoming west 10 to 15 mph in the afternoon.;

10:41 <hawmps> nice day?

10:41 <hawmps> 3rd spork >>

10:42 <hawmps> and

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11:49 <desti>

11:49 <Romulus> <> (at

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13:42 <yoyo[RKN]> &wx txl

13:42 <Romulus> yoyo[RKN]: Temperature: 75°F / 24°C | Humidity: 38% | Pressure: 30.09in / 1019hPa | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: North | Wind Speed: 7mph / 11km/h | Updated: 7:20 PM CEST; Chance of Rain. High:73 F.; Chance of Rain. Low:57 F.; Clear. High:77 F.; Clear. Low:57 F.; Clear. High:78 F.; Clear. Low:60 F.;

13:43 <Tank_Master> man, BOIN sure dose not know how to listen to the resource share

13:44 <Tank_Master> I have pg at 1 and collatz at 100, so what does BOIN do? it d/ls 205 PG WUs and goes into high priority mode and yet only d/ls 8 collatz WUs...

13:44 <FreeLarry58> should have reset both projects first Tank_Master

13:45 <Tank_Master> y?

13:45 <FreeLarry58> or so i have discovered with gpu project - resets the amount of work reqested it seems

13:45 <PovAddict> Tank_Master: but PG tasks are much shorter, aren't they?

13:46 <Tank_Master> no

13:46 <PovAddict> what matters is the hours of work, not the number of tasks

13:46 <Tank_Master> col WUs only take about 45 min

13:46 <Tank_Master> whereas PG takes about 8h

13:46 <PovAddict> debts

13:46 <Tank_Master> so it d/l 205 8h WUs

13:46 <FreeLarry58> yeah i know

13:47 <FreeLarry58> large debt for pg them

13:47 <Tank_Master> on a 8 CPU comp

13:47 <Tank_Master> that would still take more than the .5 day cache I have...

13:47 <FreeLarry58> true

13:48 <FreeLarry58> i have .25 day ache st but it regularly ignored

13:48 * FreeLarry58 cusses at fingers that not striking kb hard enought

13:48 * FreeLarry58 or too much

13:48 <Tank_Master> updating now to 6.6.38

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14:33 <PovAddict> PTP facebook app says "This name contains special characters that are not allowed."

14:33 <PovAddict> I don't even know what name it's talking about

14:34 <PovAddict> so I can't register

14:34 <PovAddict> the "feedback" and "contact" links take me back to the registration page, brilliant...

14:35 <PovAddict> I can't register and I can't contact them without registering so I can't tell them that registration is broken

14:36 <Tank_Master> lol

14:36 <Tank_Master> go figure

14:37 <Tank_Master> that ptp app wants me to install the gridrepublic app to work

14:38 <PovAddict> from what I see on the wall and the forum, most people who tried it were boinc users already

14:38 <PovAddict> I guess it hasn't been widely announced to the public yet

14:38 <Tank_Master> plus it allows you to select project that dont exist anymore, like tsp, rs, depspid, then complains when it cant connect to them...

14:39 <Tank_Master> and you have to deselect them

14:39 <PovAddict> I thought it only let you attach to WCG and Rosetta and... one other

14:39 <PovAddict> CPDN

14:39 <Tank_Master> no, theres about 30

14:39 <PovAddict> ah that's GR

14:39 <PovAddict> I'm talking about PTP only

14:39 <Tank_Master> progress through processors, right?

14:39 <PovAddict> yes

14:40 <Tank_Master> iots set up by the GR people

14:40 <Tank_Master> and WCG

14:40 <PovAddict> I know

14:40 <PovAddict> but

14:40 <PovAddict>

14:40 <PovAddict> only three projects there

14:41 <Tank_Master> I clicked no to 1

14:42 <PovAddict> I did too, and it doesn't work

14:42 <Tank_Master> man that ptp site is slow...

14:42 <PovAddict>

14:42 <PovAddict> (I used my real email address of course)

14:42 <Tank_Master> that worked for me

14:43 <Tank_Master> perhaps gmail is to special for it? :P

14:43 <Tank_Master> I have an _ in my e-mail to, and it took it

14:45 <Tank_Master> have you gotten any help at aqua with your low number of work sent to you?

14:45 <PovAddict> not any from admins

14:45 <Tank_Master> bummer

14:45 <PovAddict> just users telling me how I could work around it for testing

14:46 <Tank_Master> lol

14:46 <hawmps> spork day >>  ssh hacks

14:46 <PovAddict> like getting one WU, suspending project so it doesn't contact the server

14:46 <Tank_Master> yeah, most were of no help

14:46 <PovAddict> then backing up my folder

14:46 <PovAddict> when I crash the task, I restore the backup and can test again

14:48 <hawmps> pov -- any progress on fixing the nvidia driver cuda issue yet?

14:49 <PovAddict> I don't do cuda

14:49 <PovAddict> and I haven't seen anything related to it in the lists recently

14:49 <hawmps> figures

14:50 <PovAddict> heh

14:51 <PovAddict> TheGasGiant asks on aqua forums why Synecdoche doesn't support CUDA

14:51 <PovAddict> "I would have thought you'd be releasing a client that utilises the latest BOINC release (or at least 6.6.x atm) and 'fix' [...] the fubar scheduler"

14:51 <Tank_Master> lol

14:51 <Tank_Master> just read that to

14:52 <PovAddict> in 6.3, BOINC added GPU support, and the scheduler hasn't worked well ever since

14:52 <PovAddict> but it's debatable whether it worked well before that anyway

14:54 <PovAddict> by the time we bother with GPUs, maybe CUDA is obsolete already

14:54 <PovAddict> oh nice, another spam stream in the wiki -.-

14:55 <Tank_Master> never ends

14:55 * PovAddict starts spam-deleting script

14:57 <hawmps> like the reply to my comment on alpha...

14:58 <hawmps> bm requests gpu work when there is no gpu app.

15:00 <Tank_Master> yeah

15:04 <Tank_Master> that ptp app page wont even load for me now

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15:17 <Tank_Master> huh

15:18 <Tank_Master> when I syspended collatz, the WUs in progress didnt stop

15:18 <Tank_Master> BOINC even still shows them running

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15:29 <Tank_Master> wtf

15:29 <Tank_Master> message from server: Need version 6.45 or higherof the BOINC client, you have 6.6

15:32 <Tank_Master> heh

15:32 <Tank_Master> now its 6.60 or higher...

15:32 <Tank_Master> 08/04/09 12:23:12AQUA@homeMessage from server: Need version 6.60 or higher of the BOINC core client. You have 6.6.

15:37 <Tank_Master> LOL

15:37 <Tank_Master> <- "Odd I thought 6.6 was higher than 6.45"

15:37 <Romulus> <> (at

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16:28 <zombie67> TM!  You're back!

16:29 <Tank_Master> duh

16:29 <Tank_Master> been back for a while

16:31 <zombie67> you've been hiding!

16:32 <zombie67> brb

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17:05 <xcamel> 'lo

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18:19 <xcamel> &wx 12074

18:19 <Romulus> xcamel: Temperature: 83.2F / 28.4C | Humidity: 64% | Pressure: 29.80in / 1009.0hPa (Falling) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: SE | Wind Speed: 4.0mph / 6.4km/h ; Tonight - Partly cloudy with a slight chance of showers and thunderstorms. Lows in the mid 60s. South winds 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 20 percent.; Wednesday - Partly sunny. Highs in the lower 80s. West winds 5 to 10 mph.; Wednesday (1 more message)

18:19 <xcamel> &more

18:19 <Romulus> xcamel: Night - Mostly clear. Lows in the mid 50s. Northwest winds 5 to 10 mph.;

18:21 <wdsmia> &wx 50319

18:21 <Romulus> wdsmia: Temperature: 81.5F / 27.5C | Humidity: 64% | Pressure: 29.93in / 1013.4hPa (Rising) | Conditions: Mostly Cloudy | Wind Direction: NE | Wind Speed: 2.0mph / 3.2km/h ; Tonight - Partly cloudy. Cooler. Low in the upper 50s. Northeast wind 5 to 10 mph.; Wednesday - Partly sunny. High in the lower 80s. Southeast wind 5 to 10 mph.; Wednesday Night - Partly cloudy. Low in the lower 60s. Southeast (1 more message)

18:21 <wdsmia> &more

18:21 <Romulus> wdsmia: wind 5 to 10 mph.;

18:47 <MTughan>

18:47 <Romulus> <> (at

19:06 <CoderForLife> rain, rain, go away

19:07 *** ChanServ sets mode: -o CoderForLife

19:08 <xcamel> that too..

19:10 <Tank_Master> my lawn is so brown this year, it aint funny

19:10 <Tank_Master> we need the rain

19:10 <xcamel> take some of ours..

19:10 <CoderForLife> quite the converse here

19:10 <xcamel> 22.32" this year

19:10 <Tank_Master> ship it to me

19:10 <PovAddict> how nice of you

19:10 <PovAddict> sharing :)

19:10 <Tank_Master> that all?

19:10 <CoderForLife> flood warnings today

19:11 <CoderForLife> one area near here got 6-1/2 inches in a hour

19:11 <Tank_Master> we typically get 36" a year, rain year here startes oct 1st

19:12 <xcamel> july beat all records.. btw.. we're only half way through our rain season.

19:12 * CoderForLife lets the massage cushion to it's thing to his mid-back

19:12 <CoderForLife> to=do

19:16 <zombie67> WTF is africa@home?

19:17 <Tank_Master> a project

19:17 <zombie67> no it's not

19:17 <zombie67>

19:17 <Romulus> Title: Africa@home (at

19:18 <PovAddict> then it's malaria?

19:18 <Tank_Master> yep

19:18 <zombie67> it's like WCG

19:18 <zombie67> there is no "wcg" project

19:18 <zombie67> except worse

19:19 <zombie67> it appears that there will eventually be multiple projects under the A@H banner, but all different URLs

19:19 <zombie67> so then, how does one attach to A@H?

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19:20 <zombie67> and FYI, that site is at LEAST a couple years old.  No updates since then.

19:20 <PovAddict> "outdated" is the norm in this world

19:20 <PovAddict> KDE 4.2 in Debian testing comes with a "Welcome to KDE" document from January 2002

19:21 <zombie67> the last press release is from april 2006

19:21 <PovAddict> telling you about all the shiny new features 3.5 has

19:21 <zombie67> and mlariacontrol is frequently out of work, AND is not open to new users!!

19:22 <zombie67> and THIS is the project they are using to roll out facebook computing?

19:22 <zombie67> epic fail

19:23 <PovAddict> do you know of any good web IRC that works with freenode?

19:23 <PovAddict> (Mibbit doesn't)

19:25 <zombie67> no idea

19:25 <MTughan> PovAddict: See ##konfabulator

19:26 <Tank_Master> what happened to mibbit anyway?

19:26 <MTughan> Was blocked for abuse.

19:27 <Tank_Master> ahh

19:27 <MTughan>

19:27 <Romulus> Title: staffblog Blog Archive New freenode webchat (and why to use it) (at

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19:45 <MTughan> Hmm... MW down.

19:46 <Tank_Master> bummer

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20:15 <Tank_Master> so much for "brb" zombie67

20:16 <Tank_Master> :)

20:17 <zombie67> that wasn't fast enough?

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20:19 <Tank_Master> wasnt "right back"

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20:58 <Tank_Master> wtf does that mean?

20:58 <Tank_Master> im on facebook with IE8...

20:59 <Tank_Master> and it gave me an error "out of memory at line: 90"

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22:07 <PovAddict> looking through PTP help carefully...

22:08 <PovAddict> I wonder if they consider young teens and/or non-native speakers part of their target population

22:09 <PovAddict> because it looks more like they were trying to keep a high average of syllabes-per-word

22:19 <PovAddict> "Participation in the program isn't contingent upon using the screen saver"

22:20 <MTughan> In other words, you can still run it without using the screen saver.

22:20 <PovAddict> what's wrong with "you don't need to run the screen saver to participate in the program"?

22:22 <PovAddict> if the original sentence doesn't seem that bad, think of the average facebook user (or the stereotype of them) and read again

22:27 <PovAddict> I found 255 words worth of problems with PTP and I didn't even register yet

22:27 <zombie67> what is PTP?

22:27 <PovAddict> (that's how many words I took to list them in a mail to Matt Blumberg)

22:28 <PovAddict> &learn PTP as Progress Thru Processors; Facebook app to get people into BOINC, partnership between Intel and GridRepublic

22:28 <Romulus> PovAddict: The operation succeeded.

22:28 <PovAddict> &learn PTP as

22:28 <Romulus> PovAddict: The operation succeeded.

22:29 <zombie67> oh, that facebook crap

22:29 <PovAddict> &grab zombie67

22:29 <Romulus> PovAddict: The operation succeeded.

22:29 <zombie67> this is going to seriously turn off people from DC

22:29 <PovAddict> 30 seconds ago, post on PTP wall:

22:29 <PovAddict> Jason Warren> whatever happened to finding aliens with SETI@home ?

22:29 <zombie67> first impression is everything, and this will kill it

22:31 <zombie67> can I join the fb app without running it?

22:32 <PovAddict> well, I "added it to my profile" so I could see what it was about

22:32 <PovAddict> "allowed it" even

22:32 <PovAddict> but I still didn't "register"

22:32 <PovAddict> the option to use my existing WCG account doesn't work

22:32 <PovAddict> doesn't like the á in my FB name

22:33 <zombie67> awe crap, now it redirected me to GR

22:33 <zombie67> damnit!

22:33 <PovAddict> redirected you?

22:33 <PovAddict> please take frequent screenshots of what you do/get and post them somewhere...

22:34 <zombie67> sorry

22:34 <PovAddict> I have a feeling that the site is confusing (but I don't know yet because I can't get in)

22:34 <PovAddict> example -> the ars technica review made me think the reviewer got lost in the PTP/GR maze and ended up getting GR client instead of the PTP-branded one!

22:34 <zombie67> it ic creating an account with GR, and now wants me to dl and install something

22:35 <PovAddict>

22:35 <Tank_Master> I thought that GR was ptp

22:35 <PovAddict>

22:35 <zombie67> right, I selected No

22:35 <zombie67> and now I am in GR

22:35 <zombie67> frackers

22:35 <MTughan> No, GR is an earlier initiative more similar to BAM and BOINC combined.

22:35 <PovAddict> Tank_Master: GR has existed for a few years; PTP is a new Intel+GR campaign

22:36 <zombie67> I just want to see the FB messages!

22:36 <zombie67> GR is nonsense

22:36 <PovAddict> zombie67: then don't go to the app, go to their "page"

22:36 <zombie67> how??

22:36 <Romulus> Somebody said how is breakfast, zombie67

22:36 <PovAddict>

22:36 <PovAddict> confusingly, they have both a facebook "page", and a wall in the app info itself

22:36 <zombie67> I went here like you said:

22:36 <PovAddict> yes that's the app

22:37 <zombie67> facebook is the most confusing web site ever

22:37 <zombie67> I can never get back to a place I have been before

22:37 <Tank_Master> yeah, back button doenst work well

22:37 <Tank_Master> dunno y

22:38 <zombie67> not just the "back" button

22:38 <PovAddict> well but most of its users are fools

22:38 <zombie67> someone invites me to do something, and I hit an add button, instead of a continue button (amazingly hard to differentiate) and then I have to start the whole damn process over

22:39 <PovAddict> and they have a certain "lock-in"

22:39 <PovAddict> so people hate it but use it anyway

22:41 <zombie67> everyone is saying "brilliant idea" as if it is something newq

22:41 <MTughan> I really don't understand some other stuff about Facebook either... Why does every FB application need access to my data?

22:41 <zombie67> +1

22:41 <PovAddict> MTughan: you can't write a FB app that doesn't show the "grant this app access to your data" thing

22:41 <MTughan> PTP for instance, doesn't. Neither does that crossword game which I signed up for, or some quizzes.

22:41 <MTughan> PovAddict: Yep, and that's a weakness in the FB API.

22:41 <PovAddict> what I hate the most about apps...

22:41 <Tank_Master> its a generic message

22:42 <PovAddict> the idiot who made a cookie cutter called "quiz maker" or something

22:42 <PovAddict> it's not an app with quizzes

22:42 <PovAddict> it's a website that lets people create an app with a single quiz

22:42 <PovAddict> so bored fools start doing the quizzes and tests and *each is a different app*

22:43 <PovAddict> so I can't get them permanently out of my facebook wall

22:43 <zombie67> the info "tab" is over a page long.  The last bit is "Each project is independently managed."  That should be FIRST!!

22:43 <PovAddict> I have to block each test individually

22:44 <zombie67> damnit!  They are hurting DC like this!

22:44 <PovAddict> well I emailed Matt (GR owner) a link to this channel

22:45 <PovAddict> if we're lucky he may join and watch us whine :)

22:45 <PovAddict> not sure what his timezone is though

22:47 <zombie67> meh

22:47 *** FBUser has joined #boinc

22:50 <PovAddict> I thought about replacing the 'á' in my FB name with 'a' so I could test the app

22:50 <PovAddict> turns out name changes may take 24 hours

22:50 <zombie67> fb?

22:50 <Romulus> I guess fb is more expensive and harder to come by, from what I've found, zombie67

22:50 <zombie67> oh

22:50 <zombie67> hah!

22:51 <MTughan> fb is Facebook

22:51 <zombie67> I assumed formulaboinc!

22:51 <MTughan> See if Rommie picks that up...

22:51 <MTughan> fb?

22:51 <Romulus> I guess fb is more expensive and harder to come by, from what I've found, MTughan

22:51 <MTughan> Stupid bot.

22:51 <PovAddict> and seems to be manually reviewed by facebook admins, which makes me think 24 hours is underestimated :)

22:53 *** fbuser_ has joined #boinc

22:53 *** FBUser has quit IRC

23:00 <PovAddict> heh, from another channel:

23:00 <PovAddict> [23:59] <MFen> seriously though, the people who designed d&d were crack-addicted lemurs

23:00 <PovAddict> [23:59] <MFen> and the people who wrote the monster manuals killed the lemurs, rolled them up and smoked them

23:02 *** wolf_pup-away has joined #boinc

23:10 <MTughan> Whee... I'm in the top 99.9% of users in total credit.

23:12 <zombie67> there is a d&d channel/

23:12 <zombie67> Accumulated more credit than % of all BOINC users99.995%

23:13 <wdsmia> 99.996% :P

23:13 <zombie67> look at that!  When did I break the top 100?

23:14 <zombie67> impressive RAC wdsmia

23:14 <wdsmia> working on it

23:14 <zombie67> unfortunately, I can't put full CPU resources on AQUA

23:14 <wdsmia> congrats on top 100

23:15 <zombie67> I am working on megamilestones

23:16 <MTughan> Yeah, but you guys have been crunching longer than I have too.

23:16 <zombie67> crap!

23:16 <Tank_Master> ?

23:16 <zombie67> 90% of my credits are in the last year

23:17 <zombie67> so "crunching time" is nonsense

23:17 <zombie67> the curve has gone straight up

23:18 <wdsmia>

23:18 <Romulus> <> (at

23:19 <zombie67>

23:19 <Romulus> <> (at

23:20 <zombie67> yours is even more vertical

23:20 <zombie67>

23:20 <Romulus> <> (at

23:20 <wdsmia> amazing what a few GPU's will do

23:20 <Tank_Master> mine, not so much

23:20 <Romulus> <> (at

23:21 <zombie67> your curve was based on CPUs.  Very steep for that!

23:22 <Tank_Master> I got a 8800 and a 250 as well

23:22 <zombie67> kevint says a 250 is a rebadged 9800

23:22 <Tank_Master> though you can tell when I quit work :P

23:22 <zombie67> yeah

23:22 <Tank_Master> it is, for the most part

23:22 <zombie67> CPU mag has a comparison for the 4790.

23:22 <zombie67> impressive

23:22 <Tank_Master> lower power consumption, shorter board, more ram, larger fram buffer, but same speed

23:23 <zombie67> tm:  but you recovered your curve VERY quickly

23:23 <zombie67> GPU I assume

23:24 <Tank_Master> and aqua

23:24 <PovAddict> [00:12] <zombie67> there is a d&d channel/

23:24 <PovAddict> not that I know of

23:24 <Tank_Master> the point where I started going up is where I got the i7 and the qx9750

23:24 <PovAddict> it was from #swig (semantic web interest group); someone is making highly detailed d&d monster descriptions in RDF

23:25 <Tank_Master> the second bumb was aqua

23:25 <zombie67> ah

23:25 <zombie67> that too

23:25 <PovAddict>

23:25 <Romulus> Title: Paste #132596 | LodgeIt! (at

23:26 <zombie67> see, a single gpu project like MW, or a MP project like aqua, can almost IMMEDIATELY make cross-project stats meaningless

23:26 <PovAddict> yeah

23:26 <PovAddict> I had made long narratives showing credit flaws

23:26 <PovAddict> but I managed to shorten it to four lines that say it all

23:26 <Tank_Master> :)

23:27 <zombie67> it comes down to belief

23:27 <PovAddict> project A has a GPU app 2x faster than its CPU app

23:27 <PovAddict> project B has a GPU app 3x faster than its CPU app

23:27 <Tank_Master> project C has a 64bit CPU app thats 2x faster than the 32bit...

23:27 <zombie67> its like belief in god or abortion.  People have an opinion that cannot be changed.  period.

23:27 <PovAddict> how do you keep CPU credits equal across projects, GPU credits equal across projects, and both type of apps giving same credits for same WU within each project?

23:28 <zombie67> line 5:  And then there is optimization....

23:28 <PovAddict> that's like saying a=2b, b=2c, and c=2a, there are no possible values for a, b, and c that can work

23:28 <MTughan> PovAddict:

23:28 <PovAddict> hmm except 0 :D

23:29 <zombie67> promotes starting with a sloppy app, and THEN making it better

23:29 <PovAddict> zombie67: DA thought my example was a good one and agreed it was a problem

23:29 <PovAddict> ...and?

23:29 <zombie67> and close eyes, continue on, blindly

23:30 <zombie67> willfully blindly

23:30 <Tank_Master> :P

23:30 <PovAddict> "you're right, it's broken" ...and? where's the fix?

23:30 <Tank_Master> he's a liberal, its not up to him to fix

23:30 <Tank_Master> from his point of view

23:30 <MTughan> Oh, and has anyone noticed that PTP looks a lot like P2P?

23:30 <PovAddict> &grab MTughan

23:30 <Romulus> PovAddict: The operation succeeded.

23:31 <wdsmia> to bad DA didnt think it was a problem in 2004 when it was first brought up

23:31 <zombie67> dont worry, dr who will arrive just in time to save us

23:31 <Tank_Master> hehe

23:32 <zombie67> da was told about the problem (according to paul) over and over back then

23:33 <zombie67> megamilestones is the way to go

23:33 <zombie67> cross project RANKS

23:33 <MTughan> That encourages the projects to lower their credit to get more work.

23:33 <zombie67> heh

23:34 <zombie67> no

23:34 <zombie67> not really

23:34 <MTughan> I think weighted position comparing is the best.

23:34 <zombie67> it encourages people to work on projects with the LEAST amount of cometition

23:34 <zombie67> competition

23:34 <PovAddict> zombie67: well, I thought that was a good idea

23:34 <PovAddict> DA then said "that's not the point"

23:35 <Tank_Master> then what was?

23:35 <zombie67> of course not, any point that disagrees with him, is NOT THE POINT

23:35 <Tank_Master> forcing all project to give the same credits per hr?

23:35 <PovAddict> I thought it was better to make people join projects that currently have the least people

23:35 <zombie67> +1

23:36 <PovAddict> he says the goal is to let people join projects for their scientific merits, regardless of credits; what I suggested would (in theory) uniformly distribute users across projects

23:36 <PovAddict> even across useless ones

23:36 * Tank_Master goes n gets icecream

23:37 <MTughan> My opinion is that we should compare positioning in the projects, and bigger projects get bigger weight.

23:37 * PovAddict wonders if there's ice cream left

23:37 <PovAddict> I think it won't be in good state

23:37 <MTughan> So if you're number 1 in a big project, that carries a lot of influence on your standing. If you're number 1 in a small project, that carries less influence, as it's easier to acheive.

23:37 <PovAddict> MTughan: % rank?

23:38 <zombie67> but then that encourages more work in bigger projects

23:38 <MTughan> Yeah, I guess that would be percentage... :P

23:38 <PovAddict> rank / users in project

23:38 <zombie67> who by definition already have the crunchers

23:38 <MTughan> Why does that encourage bigger projects?

23:39 <zombie67> BTW, bok has already had this discussion

23:39 <MTughan> If you get number 1 in a lot of small projects, that can have more influence than number 1 in a big project.

23:39 <zombie67> weighted vs. not

23:39 <PovAddict> hmm

23:39 <PovAddict> makes some sense

23:39 <PovAddict> needs careful tweaking of weighting though

23:39 <PovAddict> which may be as tricky as tweaking multipliers for cross-project credit parity

23:40 <zombie67> he asked my team which we would like to see

23:40 <zombie67> the answer is:  BOTH!

23:40 <MTughan> Yeah.

23:40 <MTughan> (to Pov)

23:41 <zombie67> show both stats, three if you count cross-project (meaningless), and let the users decide which is the most meaningful to themselves

23:41 <PovAddict> fact of life: we can't come up with something good in a single attempt

23:41 <zombie67> so bok may be implementing both stats

23:41 <zombie67> we'll see

23:42 <PovAddict> I read about protocol designers who spent years to solve a bit of a philosophical issue in HTTP, including multiple face-to-face meetings

23:42 <PovAddict> I'll spare you the details

23:42 <zombie67> the point is, we need to break the "only cross-project stats count"  and "credits need to be "the same" across projects"

23:43 <PovAddict> first we need to convince stats sites to stop adding

23:43 <MTughan> Means we'd need to talk to the biggest ones.

23:43 <PovAddict> in fact, they'd have to remove lots of things

23:43 * PovAddict gets example

23:44 <zombie67> you want to the know the REAL barrier to new project being created?  cross-project credits.  They over-whelm newbie admins.

23:44 <PovAddict>

23:44 <Romulus> <> (at

23:44 <PovAddict> ^ makes no sense if cross-project credits are removed

23:45 <zombie67> credits drive 90% of the "outrage" threads on forums

23:45 <PovAddict> yeah I have seen recent aqua posts...

23:45 <Tank_Master> fun reads :)

23:46 <PovAddict> to completely change around a saying...

23:46 <PovAddict> give a man three fish and from that point he'll think it's a rip-off if you ever give him only one

23:46 <PovAddict> he'll feel entitled to three

23:47 <PovAddict> that's what I saw in AQUA

23:47 <PovAddict> people quickly got used to overpaid credits and now complain if it goes below that

23:47 <PovAddict> they think the new credits are low when in fact the old ones were high

23:48 <PovAddict> I wonder what PTP will do with their G-Hours

23:48 <PovAddict> it's supposedly proportional to flops

23:49 <PovAddict> but you can't reliably get flops from credits

23:49 <PovAddict> and even the very definition of "flop" is useless in modern processors

23:49 <Tank_Master> not to mention different cpus do work diffrently

23:50 <Tank_Master> aka atom v amd

23:50 <PovAddict> yes, and that's not even saying Intel vs AMD...

23:50 <Tank_Master> yep

23:50 <PovAddict> Core vs Pentium is different enough already

23:51 <Tank_Master> heck, atom v core2ci7 is a mess all of its own

23:51 <Tank_Master> core2 v i7*

23:55 <PovAddict> ugh

23:56 <PovAddict> if aqua doesn't increase my quota, I'll try to take a single task and replicate it a thousand times on my own local project

23:56 <zombie67> wait, how will PTP pay different credits than the normal BOINC client?

23:56 <Tank_Master> sounds like a plan

23:56 <PovAddict> zombie67: it doesn't

23:57 <zombie67> what is g-hours then?

23:57 <PovAddict> zombie67: they convert credits into their own units, to show on the facebook application

23:57 <zombie67> HAHHAHAHHHH!

23:57 <PovAddict> but down there it's the usual credits we all love and hate

23:58 <PovAddict> they're pretending they can divide by a constant and say "this unit is a meaningful measure of the work you have done"

23:59 <zombie67> comparing rosetta (with what run time??  single quorum) to cpdn (which project?  trickles??) to malaria (who doesn't allow new accounts, quorum of 3)

23:59 <zombie67> I mean....WTF?

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