IRC logs of #boinc for Wednesday, 2009-10-14

00:49 <efc> moo

01:01 <PovAddict> http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/10/introducing-google-building-maker.html

01:01 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/yh6cosg> (at googleblog.blogspot.com)

01:01 <PovAddict> another step in Google World Takeover

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02:01 <Tank_Master> http://tech.msn.com/products/slideshow.aspx?cp-documentid=22075234&imageindex=2

02:01 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/ygl4ea6> (at tech.msn.com)

02:03 <Tank_Master> humm, collatz dont seem to like me geforce 8800

02:04 <Tank_Master> all errored as soon as they started

03:15 <FreeLarry58> funny tank got it running on a 8400 or mayby 8500 card here

03:17 <efc> &math convert 1 hp to watts

03:17 <Romulus> efc: 745.699871582

03:19 <FreeLarry58> old thumb rule for 3 phase 450VAC motors 3-4-5 KW-HP-Amps

03:21 <efc> There are smaller ~12v DC motors

03:21 <efc> but some similar rule probably exists

03:22 <FreeLarry58> lol a bit

03:22 <efc> These usually have a torque/amp constant, and a speed/volt constant

03:22 <efc> like this RS-775 is 2.04 oz-in/Amp, 608 rpm/Volt

03:22 <efc> Run it as hot as you dare

03:23 <FreeLarry58> right - just don't burn yur fingers

03:23 <efc> some of them are still as much as 6,000 watts in a ~3 inch package

03:23 <FreeLarry58> what you running them in

03:23 <FreeLarry58> robotics?

03:24 <efc> Yeah, eventually, maybe

03:24 <efc> Want to do some linear actuators

03:24 <FreeLarry58> humm 6KW lifting arm

03:24 <efc> Not that much.. I don't want a terminator

03:25 <FreeLarry58> lol that would be for teeth

03:25 <efc> The commercially available actuators aren't at the speed/torque ratios I want

03:26 <FreeLarry58> trying to wind your own then?

03:26 <efc> not the motors.. There are some pretty good ones available

03:26 * FreeLarry58 thinks building lamenated cores for windings would be a b....ch

03:26 <efc> Just assemble the motor, acme screw, and other mechanics would be the idea

03:27 <efc> +gearbox (those motors are usually 15000-20000 RPM, way too fast)

03:27 <FreeLarry58> you got access to mil-spec items maybe? altho they going more with commercially available stuff nowdays too

03:28 <efc> I'm sure for the right price

03:28 <efc> There may be something I'm missing, since nobody seems to make them like I want

03:28 <FreeLarry58> flywheel may be better for speed reduction and belt system

03:28 <efc> These motors are $10-$20. They're the cheap part.

03:29 <FreeLarry58> sewing machine motors?

03:29 <efc> Stuff like this. http://banebots.com/c/MOTOR-BRUSH   basically, larger versions of hobby toy motors.

03:29 <Romulus> Title: BaneBots Robot Parts: Brushed Motors (at banebots.com)

03:29 <efc> Stuff at the bottom is the stronger ones

03:32 <FreeLarry58> looks like some of the stuff in control circuits for sychro compass circuits for maritime use

03:32 <FreeLarry58> also old deguassing systems

03:33 <efc> I dunno if those will really work well. Servo motors tend to be someone specialized.

03:33 <efc> Low-mass so they accelerate quickly, carefully balanced so they don't cog (stick to the magnets)

03:35 <FreeLarry58> true built for purpose

03:35 <efc> Also I figure backslash and other gear problems may make this thing imprecise

03:36 <FreeLarry58> i see some of those have spur gear motors for speed reduction already

03:36 <efc> They have a whole selection of gearboxes and ratios, really nice

03:36 <FreeLarry58> how close of tolerance you looking for?

03:36 <efc> 1/10" inch if moving slow

03:37 <efc> it would be: motor-> 4:1 gearbox -> 3/8" 12 TPI Acme thread

03:37 <FreeLarry58> that is hugh tolerance

03:37 <FreeLarry58> maybe go to 32 tpi

03:37 <efc> It would require that 17,000 RPM motor to do exactly 4 revolutions

03:38 <efc> 17,000 if spun up all the the way of course

03:39 <FreeLarry58> i take it its for adjusting telescope position then

03:40 <efc> Something like that. Arm position.

03:42 <efc> 120 lb force

03:42 <FreeLarry58> then motor not that critical but need good couplings for position sensors motor has to be able to engage disengage while at speed or stallouts very likely

03:42 <efc> but can go slow if fully loaded

03:43 <efc> Hmm. Good point.

03:44 <FreeLarry58> slip clutch or hydrolic clutch to reduce vibration of motor engagements - braking needed for outer ring of motion

03:44 <efc> Yes, it would have position feedback of some sort.

03:44 <FreeLarry58> if wanting direct motor coupling sounding more like a reluctance motor is needed

03:46 <efc> One nice thing about the Acme threads is that they don't backdrive so won't burn out the motor trying to hold a position

03:46 * FreeLarry58 been to long since i keep up with motors and controllers tho so really don't know whats avail

03:47 <FreeLarry58> true

03:47 <FreeLarry58> if remember right acme thread is square edges

03:48 <FreeLarry58> used for positioning indications in controller circuits

03:48 <efc> 29 degree thread angle

03:48 <efc> Yeah, popular for CNC mills and that kind of thing

03:49 <efc> I have to stick to stuff thats commonly available and not terribly expensive

03:49 <efc> For example ball threads are much more efficient, but super expensive, and then I'd have to add a brake because they will backdrive

03:49 <FreeLarry58> if home use item - look at all thread

03:50 <efc> I did buy a few home depot threaded rods just to play and experiment

03:51 <efc> Not the smoothest things but ok with some oil

03:51 <FreeLarry58> find some worn out micrometers and try out the threaded parts from them

03:51 <FreeLarry58> or old metal lathe

03:52 <FreeLarry58> the parts used for positioning the cutting blade that is

03:52 <efc> I think thats typically Acme

03:52 <efc> There's also "Square threads" but haven't seen them sold

03:52 <FreeLarry58> mostly - especially if you looking at the bed screw

03:53 <FreeLarry58> nope mostly special order

03:53 <FreeLarry58> unless you find a repair shop for shop equipment

03:54 <FreeLarry58> or as i had to have done overseas - made to order on ships machine shop equipment

03:55 <FreeLarry58> which sometimes required building the tool to make the part

03:55 <efc> Would be nice to have a machine shop

03:55 <FreeLarry58> very expensive tho

03:56 <efc> Yes, I was looking at mini-laths, about $500 for a very small Chinese one.

03:56 <FreeLarry58> and very limited as to what you can make on them due to size

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03:58 <FreeLarry58> dad made up a wood lathe by getting an old head someone threw away and adding a washing machine motor - mounted every thing on a home built bench and used belts to change speeds

03:58 <FreeLarry58> morn ELGono

03:59 <FreeLarry58> later he added some pipes and an end  head

04:00 <efc> Nice. We do have a large wood lathe. I have no idea how to use it.

04:01 <FreeLarry58> they fun - problem is getting the wood - dad glued and used hydrolic jacks to press them together to make the size wood he wanted

04:02 <efc> You can make some beautiful patterns like that

04:02 <FreeLarry58> made a lot of lamps and bowls on that thing - slow speed for roughing work then higher speed when ready to smooth out with final cuts and sanding

04:03 <FreeLarry58> most of his wood came from the furniture company scrap pile - before they started to recycle it into chips that is

04:05 <FreeLarry58> well think about time for a nap - have good night efc and hope you get things figured out

04:06 <efc> Night FL, take care

04:07 <efc> Finally got this (*$#$ space bar working. Lubed it up with chapstick.

04:13 <ELGono> morning dudes

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04:30 <efc> moo ELG

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06:23 <wdsmia> &wx 50319

06:23 <Romulus> wdsmia: Temperature: 37.8F / 3.2C | Humidity: 91% | Pressure: 30.25in / 1024.3hPa (Falling) | Conditions: Overcast | Wind Direction: NE | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Today - Cloudy. Patchy drizzle. High in the lower 40s. East wind 5 to 10 mph.; Tonight - Rain through midnight...then rain likely after midnight. Low in the upper 30s. East wind 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 80 percent.; Thursday - (1 more message)

06:23 <wdsmia> &more

06:23 <Romulus> wdsmia: Cloudy. A chance of rain in the morning...then a slight chance of rain in the afternoon. High in the lower 40s. East wind 5 to 10 mph shifting to the north in the afternoon. Chance of rain 30 percent.;

06:23 <hawmps> 'lo

06:23 <wdsmia> mornin

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07:42 <hawmps> &wx 12020

07:42 <Romulus> hawmps: Temperature: 31.9F / -0.1C | Humidity: 95% | Pressure: 30.07in / 1018.2hPa (Steady) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: NW | Wind Speed: 0.0mph / 0.0km/h ; Today - Partly sunny. Highs in the upper 40s. Northwest winds 5 to 10 mph.; Tonight - Partly cloudy. Cold with lows in the upper 20s. Northwest winds around 5 mph in the evening...becoming light and variable.; Thursday - Partly sunny (1 more message)

07:42 <hawmps> &more

07:42 <Romulus> hawmps: in the morning...then becoming mostly cloudy. Highs in the upper 40s. Northeast winds 5 to 10 mph.;

07:43 <hawmps> burrr

07:43 <hawmps> &wx MMLP

07:43 <Romulus> hawmps: Temperature: 80°F / 26°C | Humidity: 86% | Pressure: 29.84in / 1010hPa | Conditions: Scattered Clouds | Wind Direction: North | Wind Speed: 9mph / 14km/h | Updated: 2:50 AM MDT; Overcast. High:89 F.; Chance of a Thunderstorm. Low:77 F.; Chance of a Thunderstorm. High:91 F.; Chance of a Thunderstorm. Low:77 F.; Chance of a Thunderstorm. High:93 F.; Clear. Low:78 F.;

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12:14 <yomshleeshee> I like this: "EDGeS@Home is a research project that uses Internet-connected computers to do research in EDGeS@Home."

12:15 * yomshleeshee rubs chin and stares philosophically at nothing

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12:15 <PovAddict> lol

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12:35 <FreeLarry58> humm sounds like roundtable logic to me yomshleeshee

12:38 <yomshleeshee> pretty much

12:38 <yomshleeshee> amusing non the less

12:38 <yomshleeshee> none*

12:39 <FreeLarry58> lol -both mean the same

12:39 <yomshleeshee> :-o

12:40 <FreeLarry58> so where is EDGe located at a uni or some company i wonder - may give hint as to what they are looking at

12:42 <yomshleeshee> good question

12:42 * FreeLarry58 just realized he has another 850watt ps sitting here - wonders what he can upgrade with it

12:42 <yomshleeshee> why do so few project use https for the account login?

12:43 <yomshleeshee> I do. does anyone else?

12:44 <FreeLarry58> humm machine to machine login - seems a bit extreme for distributed stuff - are you dealing with propitory stuff?

12:44 <MTughan> WCG uses HTTPS.

12:44 <yomshleeshee> no, no. I mean when you login to the website for account stuff

12:45 <yomshleeshee> ah

12:45 <yomshleeshee> does SETI?

12:45 <yomshleeshee> i mean it's not a difficult addition. certainly more documented than BOINC o.O

12:45 <yomshleeshee> well, the SSL part

12:46 <yomshleeshee> it did require a couple of hacks to integrate it

12:48 <FreeLarry58> humm if i used same username and pw for boinc as i did for finances could see a point in maintaining security

12:48 <FreeLarry58> but definitly different

12:49 <MTughan> WCG uses HTTPS for both account management and for BOINC files and WUs.

12:49 <yomshleeshee> fair enough. it's it's not hard to do for the extra security

12:50 <yomshleeshee> yeah, I don't feel the need to have SSL with the client. only when the password is sent.

12:50 <FreeLarry58> true and the end user would not see a difference i don't think - may slow connections a bit when reporting and getting work

12:50 <MTughan> Seems to work fast enough.

12:50 <FreeLarry58> server loading?

12:50 <MTughan> I'm not part of any project though, least of all WCG.

12:50 <PovAddict> yomshleeshee: the client sends the account key every time it connects

12:51 <yomshleeshee> true

12:51 <PovAddict> yomshleeshee: if someone gets your account key, it's *worse* than if he gets your password

12:51 <yomshleeshee> hmm

12:52 <yomshleeshee> so what did it take to use SSL to the client

12:52 <PovAddict> just configure Apache to require SSL for the scheduler

12:52 <PovAddict> and change your schedulers.txt to have https://

12:52 <yomshleeshee> oh, that's it? ha.

12:53 <PovAddict> also, your SSL certificate should be from an "approved" root CA (I think it's using mozilla's list)

12:53 <PovAddict> self-signed won't do ;)

12:53 <yomshleeshee> cause MTughan's right, it is the most important identification thing for a user

12:54 <yomshleeshee> oh, then I'm screwed

12:54 <yomshleeshee> I totally selfsign

12:54 <yomshleeshee> so the client would complain about being unidentified

12:54 <PovAddict> well using a self-signed cert for the website means trouble for users anyway... they have to explicitly allow it

12:54 <yomshleeshee> right

12:54 <PovAddict> browser don't like self-signed certs

12:54 <FreeLarry58> especially if running some sort of avg

12:54 <yomshleeshee> right, but at least you can click and approve it

12:55 <PovAddict> yep

12:55 <FreeLarry58> or ie with default settings

12:55 <PovAddict> and I can do a man-in-the-middle attack giving my own self-signed cert

12:55 <PovAddict> browser won't tell the difference; neither is more trusted

12:55 <PovAddict> so you won't have much more security than doing it unencrypted

12:56 <yomshleeshee> true, but the man in the middle attack by myself would simply me making it harder on myself since by default boinc projects use no ssl

12:56 <yomshleeshee> so I could just sit and read off passwords before I used SSL with the self signed cert

12:57 <yomshleeshee> well, I have more security against other people on the network

12:57 <yomshleeshee> but true there's no added security against the project admin

12:57 <PovAddict> what do you mean "against the project admin"?

12:57 <PovAddict> you can never be safe from the admin who has access to the database!

12:58 <yomshleeshee> meaning *I* could do a man in the middle with another cert I self sign

12:58 <yomshleeshee> but you would need my CA to do that

12:58 <PovAddict> how does the browser know it's your CA?

12:58 <yomshleeshee> true

12:58 <PovAddict> it uses a hardcoded list of trusted CAs, and yours is not there

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12:59 <yomshleeshee> true

12:59 <yomshleeshee> it doesn't prevent something like a man in the middle attack by faking the site

12:59 <yomshleeshee> but it does prevent evesdropping

12:59 <PovAddict> if I could sit between your server and the user, for example if I'm the admin of a proxy, I could eavesdrop non-encrypted traffic

13:00 <PovAddict> and with SSL, I could still do a mitm attack without the user seeing any warning that he doesn't already see

13:00 <yomshleeshee> right which is my point that the boinc is non encrypted by default

13:00 <yomshleeshee> true

13:00 <yomshleeshee> but by default you don't even need to do a mitm attack

13:00 <yomshleeshee> just read

13:03 <yomshleeshee> do you know where the clients trusted CA list is?

13:03 <yomshleeshee> google didn't find much for me

13:03 <PovAddict> depends on the platform

13:03 <yomshleeshee> oh

13:04 <PovAddict> on Linux, it just uses the system's list

13:04 <PovAddict> afaik

13:04 <PovAddict> but anyway, the list should be the same as mozilla's

13:04 <yomshleeshee> i see

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14:46 <MTughan> Whoa, mweltin was here?

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14:59 <PovAddict> hey Rom

14:59 <RomW> Howdy

15:00 <PovAddict> I was trying to help Jack with a wrapper problem last night

15:00 <PovAddict> apparently the wrapper crashed and left the legacy app running

15:01 <PovAddict> stack trace had no symbols, and the crash seemed to have corrupted return addresses anyway

15:02 <PovAddict> I went crazy trying to get WinDbg to load the .pdb file Jack sent me, and then it looked like that .pdb didn't match the wrapper's .exe

15:02 <PovAddict> I hate debugging on Windows

15:02 <RomW> lol

15:03 <RomW> Have him build you a new set at the same time

15:03 <PovAddict> RomW: also, I believe there is a bug in the wrapper

15:03 <PovAddict> if two apps have the same <stdout_filename>, when the first one finishes, the wrapper sits idle for some seconds

15:04 <RomW> This is something you should pass off to David

15:04 <PovAddict> I watched with Process Monitor, and it seemed to be trying to open the stdout file repeatedly (boinc_fopen's retrying) and getting sharing violation every time

15:04 <RomW> I haven't looked at the wrapper code in forever

15:04 <PovAddict> I think it's because the file isn't closed after the first app finishes

15:04 <PovAddict> but I'm not sure how Windows file handles work in that situation (passed to CreateProcess)

15:04 <PovAddict> not sure if you have to close them or not

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15:05 <PovAddict> STARTUPINFO startup_info; startup_info.hStdOutput = win_fopen(stdout_path.c_str(), "a");

15:05 <PovAddict> and then CreateProcess passing that startup_info

15:05 <PovAddict> win_fopen returns a HANDLE

15:06 <PovAddict> it's never closed with CloseFile

15:06 <PovAddict> should it be?

15:06 <RomW> betwwen app one and two, yes

15:07 <RomW> But the wrapper shouldn't be creating the file to begin with

15:07 <RomW> That is the apps job

15:08 <PovAddict> this is when the app's stdout is redirected into a file; the filename is given in the job.xml

15:13 <yoyo[RKN]> hmm

15:13 <yoyo[RKN]> my apps in job.xml always use the same output file

15:13 <yoyo[RKN]> &wx sxf

15:13 <Romulus> yoyo[RKN]: Temperature: 41°F / 5°C | Humidity: 61% | Pressure: 30.18in / 1022hPa | Conditions: Mostly Cloudy | Wind Direction: NNW | Wind Speed: 15mph / 24km/h | Updated: 8:50 PM CEST; Scattered Clouds. High:42 F.; Chance of Rain. Low:37 F.; Chance of Rain. High:42 F.; Chance of Rain. Low:35 F.; Chance of Snow. High:41 F.; Chance of Snow. Low:33 F.;

15:14 <PovAddict> yoyo[RKN]: do they write to stdout at all?

15:14 <yoyo[RKN]> let me check to be sure

15:15 <yoyo[RKN]> the job.xml http://yoyo.pastebin.com/m57656956

15:15 <Romulus> Title: yoyo private pastebin - collaborative debugging tool (at yoyo.pastebin.com)

15:16 <yoyo[RKN]> 5 times the same <task>

15:17 <PovAddict> well only the first one will get the proper 'out'

15:17 <PovAddict> and the wrapper will hang for a few seconds between one app and the next

15:18 <yoyo[RKN]> I have the output of 5 runs afterwards in _0 file

15:19 <yoyo[RKN]> don't know if wrapper idles for some seconds

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16:09 <yoyo[RKN]> rodrigoflores : is your wrapper running?

16:09 <yoyo[RKN]> &wx sxf

16:09 <Romulus> yoyo[RKN]: Temperature: 41°F / 5°C | Humidity: 61% | Pressure: 30.18in / 1022hPa | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: NNW | Wind Speed: 14mph / 22km/h | Updated: 9:50 PM CEST; Scattered Clouds. High:42 F.; Chance of Rain. Low:37 F.; Chance of Rain. High:42 F.; Chance of Rain. Low:35 F.; Chance of Snow. High:41 F.; Chance of Snow. Low:33 F.;

16:09 <rodrigoflores> yoyo[RKN], no

16:10 <rodrigoflores> I'm fight with that '<' bug that I mentioned

16:10 <rodrigoflores> *I'm fighting with that '<' bug that I mentioned

16:10 <rodrigoflores> **I'm fighting with that '<' "bug" that I mentioned

16:10 <yoyo[RKN]> can you paste job.xml, wu-template and result template here http://yoyo.pastebin.com/

16:10 <Romulus> Title: yoyo private pastebin - collaborative debugging tool (at yoyo.pastebin.com)

16:11 <rodrigoflores> yoyo[RKN], sure

16:13 <PovAddict> I think I'm done with my all-projects test...

16:13 <PovAddict> what project should I concentrate in? :)

16:13 <yoyo[RKN]> yoyo ;)

16:15 <PovAddict> any subproject you're particularly needing more power in?

16:15 <yoyo[RKN]> ecm

16:15 <PovAddict> I'm always interested in projects that are close to reaching a milestone

16:15 <PovAddict> help run the last mile

16:16 <yoyo[RKN]> hmm

16:16 <yoyo[RKN]> ogr

16:16 <yoyo[RKN]> will probably finish 26-May-2020 ;)

16:17 <yoyo[RKN]> what do you test?

16:18 <rodrigoflores> yoyo[RKN], http://yoyo.pastebin.com/m3fc0a1d3

16:18 <Romulus> Title: yoyo private pastebin - collaborative debugging tool (at yoyo.pastebin.com)

16:20 <rodrigoflores> &wx sao

16:20 <Romulus> rodrigoflores: Unknown. High:80 F.; Chance of a Thunderstorm. Low:69 F.; Chance of a Thunderstorm. High:86 F.; Scattered Clouds. Low:69 F.; Chance of a Thunderstorm. High:86 F.; Chance of a Thunderstorm. Low:69 F.;

16:20 <yoyo[RKN]> rodrigoflores : your wu has no input files?

16:23 <rodrigoflores> yoyo[RKN], no

16:24 <rodrigoflores> I'm trying to run it in the simplest way I can

16:24 <yoyo[RKN]> don't know if this is possibe

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16:25 <yoyo[RKN]> PovAddict: ?

16:25 <Romulus> PovAddict: is that url for me, yoyo[RKN]

16:26 <PovAddict> no input files is no problem

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16:28 <rodrigoflores> yoyo[RKN], sorry, did you said something? My connection is pretty unstable

16:28 <yoyo[RKN]> no

16:30 <yoyo[RKN]> can you also paste the stderr

16:31 <quail> 'morning all, how's everyone?

16:32 <yoyo[RKN]> 'evening'

16:33 <yoyo[RKN]> my copy_file tag is just         <copy_file/>

16:33 <quail> hey yoyo[RKN] whats been happening?

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16:36 <PovAddict> rodrigoflores: I think your problem is <OUTFILE_0>

16:36 <PovAddict> try <OUTFILE_0/>

16:38 <rodrigoflores> PovAddict, I'll try

16:38 <rodrigoflores> Thanks

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16:42 <rodrigoflores> yoyo[RKN],  my stderr http://yoyo.pastebin.com/m2f0abfeb

16:42 <Romulus> Title: yoyo private pastebin - collaborative debugging tool (at yoyo.pastebin.com)

16:42 <PovAddict> &boincerr -195

16:42 <Romulus> PovAddict: no app version

16:43 <PovAddict> I don't think it's that

16:43 <rodrigoflores> I have to go

16:44 <rodrigoflores> I will look the channel log in some hours

16:45 <PovAddict> &cpid wdsmia

16:45 <Romulus> PovAddict: "wdsmia's CPID" could be c0f16ac6eb30094fb940891c66b2d376

16:47 <wdsmia_w> &pov's days  on #boinc could be limited

16:47 <Romulus> wdsmia_w: I dunno.

16:49 <PovAddict> I wanted to see how many hundred times more credit than me you had

16:51 <yoyo[RKN]> &cpid yoyo

16:51 <Romulus> yoyo[RKN]: Error: No factoid matches that key.

16:52 <PovAddict> &cpid "yoyo[RKN]"

16:52 <Romulus> PovAddict: Error: No factoid matches that key.

16:52 <PovAddict> &learn yoyo's CPID as 6b10fd0eee31e99a39650c493a598373

16:52 <Romulus> PovAddict: The operation succeeded.

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16:53 <yoyo[RKN]> &cpid yoyo

16:53 <Romulus> yoyo[RKN]: "yoyo's CPID" could be 6b10fd0eee31e99a39650c493a598373

16:54 <PovAddict> &help cpid

16:54 <Romulus> PovAddict: (cpid <an alias, 1 argument>) -- Alias for "whatis #boinc $1's CPID".

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17:04 <PovAddict> a

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18:25 <wdsmia> re-hi

19:20 <wdsmia> &ping

19:20 <Romulus> pong

19:49 <jackygrahamez_> wrong

19:50 <jackygrahamez_> well I've packed my bags, I'm ready to go (8)

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22:16 *** wdsmia_ is now known as wdsmia

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23:47 <zombie67> need help debugging a HW problem

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23:58 <jackygrahamez_> what's up?

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