IRC logs of #boinc for Saturday, 2010-12-25

00:24 <PovAddict> merry humbug

00:25 <efc> Merry Christmas

00:31 <PovAddict> this gets more boring every year

00:32 <efc> I got the pairs some good things this time, I think.

00:34 <PovAddict> maybe next year I should stay out of this BS citing religious reasons or something (not like most other people actually care about the religious aspects of christmas, but anyway)

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00:42 <PovAddict> "Christmas is a holiday which commerates the birth of Jesus Christ, wherein the baby Jesus hopped on his sleigh and delivered presents to all the children in the world."

00:50 <efc> I'll take the Gold please. You can keep the perfumes.

00:53 <PovAddict> if you compare price by volume or by weight, it wouldn't surprise me to find perfumes more expensive than gold

01:03 <efc> I think we should switch to a currency backed up by inkjet cartridges.

01:08 <PovAddict> :)

01:08 <PovAddict> seriously speaking, someone predicted the electricity kWh could become international currency in the future

01:09 <PovAddict> sounds plausible

01:10 <efc> Interesting idea.

01:10 <efc> Kind of hard to move it internationally, though.

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01:14 <PovAddict> unless you measure the power contained in, say, crude oil :P

02:08 <efc> &wx 31088

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02:08 <Romulus> efc: Temperature: 31F / -1C | Humidity: 94% | Pressure: 30.09in / 1019hPa (Falling) | Conditions: Clear | Wind Direction: North | Wind Speed: 0mph / 0km/h ; Rest of Tonight - Increasing clouds. Lows in the upper 20s. Light and variable winds becoming southwest up to 5 mph after midnight.; Christmas Day - Partly sunny with a chance of rain in the morning...then rain in the afternoon. Highs in the (1 more message)

02:08 <efc> &more

02:08 <Romulus> efc: mid 40s. Northwest winds 5 to 10 mph. Chance of rain 80 percent.; Saturday Night - Rain and snow likely in the evening...then a chance of snow after midnight. Little or no snow accumulation. Lows in the upper 20s. Northwest winds 5 to 15 mph. Chance of precipitation 70 percent.; Special Weather Statement for Houston County in effect until 9:15 AM EST on December 25, 2010;

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08:12 <ChristmasCoder> Merry Christmas Day

09:27 <Bah_Humbug> !

10:40 <xcamel_> Merry Christmas to everyone also.

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11:26 <yoyo[RKN]> &wx sxf

11:26 <Romulus> yoyo[RKN]: Temperature: 21F / -6C | Humidity: 86% | Pressure: 30.06in / 1018hPa (Rising) | Conditions: Mostly Cloudy | Wind Direction: NW | Wind Speed: 15mph / 24km/h ; Chance of Snow. High:26 F.; Chance of Snow. Low:3 F.; Chance of Snow. High:22 F.; Chance of Snow. Low:13 F.; Chance of Snow. High:26 F.; Chance of Snow. Low:1 F.;

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13:53 <PovAddict> http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/12/24/931495/-BREAKING:-Wikileaks-obtains-the-Naughty-List

13:53 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/257sb5t> (at www.dailykos.com)

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14:50 <Migi32> hi all

14:50 <Migi32> how is this happening:

14:50 <Migi32> http://www.allprojectstats.com/show.php?projekt=0&id=4282004240

14:50 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/3xdekcp> (at www.allprojectstats.com)

14:50 <Migi32> is it cheating or something?

14:51 <Migi32> it's the same model CPU as I have, only 700x more RAC

14:52 <PovAddict> WUProp@Home doesn't give credits for CPU usage, since it barely uses any CPU

14:53 <PovAddict> just forget that it's even possible to compare "total" credits, compare only within same project, and you'll stay sane

14:54 <Migi32> really? That's a sad thing because many people crunch for those credits and actually choose projects because they give more credits

14:56 <PovAddict> yes, and BOINC devs try to fix that by making complicated credit-granting systems that try to make all projects give the same amount of credits, but that's fundamentally impossible

14:57 <PovAddict> if a project doesn't do any CPU processing, it only does network activity, how many credits should it give? based on time, or based on bandwidth usage?

14:58 <Migi32> I would say, based on the scientific value of a processed WU

14:58 <Migi32> but that's hard to measure in credits :P

14:59 <PovAddict> that's impossible to measure objectively :P

14:59 <yoyo[RKN]> the only problem is, that some stats pages combine the credits of different projects just by summarizing them

15:00 <Migi32> however, if we at least did an attempt then silly projects like DNETC@HOME and Collatz wouldn't be #2 and #4 in the rankings

15:00 <PovAddict> Migi32: those are to blame on GPUs

15:00 * yoyo[RKN] should change the credits in yoyos projects to 1mio per hour

15:01 <PovAddict> basically there's complicated stuff to make projects give the same credits per CPU usage, and no such effort for parity per GPU usage, so the credits you get are related to how much faster their GPU app is compared to their CPU app

15:02 <PovAddict> if you think about it hard enough, you realize that the *slower* their CPU app is, the more credits they can give you for GPU work

15:02 <PovAddict> afaik no project is *intentionally* abusing that fact, but...

15:05 <Migi32> PovAddict, well ok, but there are also useful projects using a GPUGrid, which is only #9

15:05 <Migi32> projects like* GPUGrid

15:05 <Migi32> using a GPU

15:05 <PovAddict> does GPUGrid have a CPU app at all?

15:05 <Migi32> no

15:06 <Migi32> ah ok wait

15:06 <Migi32> I see what you were saying

15:09 <Migi32> does BOINC actually have control over which projects a BOINC client can connect to?

15:09 <PovAddict> as much as xchat developers have control over which IRC servers you can connect to

15:09 <PovAddict> there are many projects that the BOINC devs aren't even aware of

15:09 <PovAddict> such as ChristmasCoder's in-house financial simulations (IIRC)

15:10 <Migi32> ok, so they can't enforce any credit-giving policy

15:10 <yoyo[RKN]> no

15:10 <yoyo[RKN]> the stats pages are the problem, they just summarize credits

15:11 <PovAddict> Migi32: well, they might, but not directly

15:12 <yoyo[RKN]> they must normalize the different projects, e.g. as dc-vaults makes it

15:12 <PovAddict> Migi32: for example, I think the devs once asked a project to reduce their credits, and when they didn't do it, they threatened to ask stats sites to divide the displayed credits of that project by a factor

15:14 <Migi32> well perhaps they should normalise every project's credits by a factor that can be downloaded from boinc.berkeley.edu (so they could change that factor later)

15:15 <yoyo[RKN]> no factor

15:16 <yoyo[RKN]> project A has in total given 1000 credits and project B 10000

15:16 <yoyo[RKN]> and you have 10 in each project

15:16 <PovAddict> Migi32: please tell me what the right factor would be :P

15:16 <yoyo[RKN]> than you are ranked 10/1000 in A and 10/10000 in B

15:17 <yoyo[RKN]> and than you can add both

15:17 <yoyo[RKN]> hmm

15:17 <yoyo[RKN]> something like this

15:19 <PovAddict> that would encourage people to contribute to projects with the fewest users

15:19 <Migi32> PovAddict, that would be up for the higher-ups to decide, on a per-project basis

15:20 <yoyo[RKN]> was just an adhoc idea

15:20 <PovAddict> Migi32: but *how* would you decide?

15:21 <Migi32> no, for most projects the factor would be 1, but say a project decides to give 10x more credits than it should, you could set the factor at 0.1

15:21 <Migi32> how? let it crunch 10 WU's, then see how many credits you got for the CPU cycles spent

15:21 <yoyo[RKN]> the problem is already in one project. I have a workunit which can run on CPU@linux and on PS3 and grants 10 credits. But it needs 10h on cpu and 1h on PS3

15:21 <Migi32> well in that case there's nothing BOINC can do, it's up to the project to fix that

15:22 <Migi32> no, wait, there's nothing wrong with that. PS3's are far more powerful than CPU's

15:22 <Migi32> they shouldn't get the same credits for the same time

15:23 <PovAddict> Migi32: they should get the same credits for the same workunit

15:23 <Migi32> and in yoyo's example they do

15:23 <PovAddict> how do you solve this? http://pastebin.com/8YCJNX0X

15:23 <Romulus> Title: Foo@home's PS3 app is 3 times faster than its CPU (at pastebin.com)

15:24 <Migi32> ok, let me start again. Here's the algorithm:

15:25 <Migi32> 1. pick a computer with 1,000 double-precision MIPS based on the Whetstone benchmark (or close to it)

15:25 <Migi32> 2. crunch one day of work of a certain project

15:25 <Migi32> 3. see how many credits you got

15:26 <PovAddict> that's a simplistic view of computers

15:26 <Migi32> 4. the actual credits should be: 100 cobblestones / given credits

15:27 <Migi32> no, sorry: 4. 100*100 cobblestones / given credits

15:27 <Migi32> PovAddict, it's how credits are *defined*

15:27 <Migi32> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOINC_Credit_System

15:27 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/5vzmxx> (at en.wikipedia.org)

15:27 <PovAddict> nope, guess what

15:28 <PovAddict> a few years ago, SETI@Home switched from benchmark-based credits to adding code to the app to estimate how many floating-point operations it did

15:28 <PovAddict> and then devs insisted other projects should give similar credits/day than SETI

15:29 <PovAddict> years later it was found that SETI had been granting twice the credits it should, because it was using flops+iops (addition) instead of (flops+iops)/2 (average)

15:30 <PovAddict> so BOINC devs quietly *changed the definition of credits* -> http://boinc.berkeley.edu/w/?title=Computation_credit&diff=2818&oldid=1126

15:30 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/2allzfx> (at boinc.berkeley.edu)

15:31 <Migi32> heh

15:31 <Migi32> didn't know that

15:31 <Migi32> we should edit the wikipedia page then

15:31 <PovAddict> it wasn't widely announced, they wouldn't want to openly admit they were insisting other projects to adjust to something that was wrong :P

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15:33 <PovAddict> either way, that definition is useless with modern computers

15:33 <Migi32> yea, I know

15:35 <Migi32> well there's probably no good solution as long as people crunch for credit

15:35 <PovAddict> I think the only way is to stop pretending cross-project credit parity is possible

15:37 <PovAddict> it works for games... I have 164,550 points in Bejeweled, and 108,424 points in Tetris, yet I don't claim I have 272,974 points total, or play the game that gives the most credits per minute played

15:37 <Migi32> maybe we should just send a mail to collatz and the like saying "dudes, you've checked 2,682,561,764,939,817,403 numbers so far, the chance you will find a counterexample is rather low and even if you do it's not a big deal. Please lower your credits/WU a little so people that go for credits actually go for something more useful."

15:38 <Migi32> PovAddict, I don't crunch for credits either, but I know there are people who do. And not just one or two guys here and there, there's a lot.

15:38 <PovAddict> people play games for points too

15:39 <PovAddict> but they know points between different games are not comparable

15:39 <Migi32> yea with "crunch for credits" I meant "crunch the project that gives the most credits"

15:42 <Migi32> btw I crunch Simap whenever I can, it doesn't give many credits and is only available a couple of days per month, but it's one of the few projects that publishes directly useful results

16:54 <ChristmasCoder> going to power down the house to futz with the new TED device to monitor house power usage - bbl

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16:58 <xcamel> TED??

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20:06 <CoderForLife> re-hi

20:07 *** ChanServ sets mode: -o CoderForLife

20:07 <CoderForLife> MS reboots complete; house has been TEDized

20:08 <CoderForLife> currently burning $0.23 per kWH

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20:09 <CoderForLife> 3.576 kW load ATM

20:10 <CoderForLife> very interesting

20:10 <Bah_Humbug> boot up a few more puters

20:10 <efc> moo

20:10 <CoderForLife> moo efc

20:10 <efc> Going diesel?

20:10 <CoderForLife> baaa Bah_Humbug

20:11 <efc> Its snowing northwest of us. Just rain here.

20:11 <CoderForLife> you need to live further north

20:12 <efc> Got power still?

20:12 <CoderForLife> I now have one of these  http://www.theenergydetective.com/home

20:12 <Romulus> Title: Home page (at www.theenergydetective.com)

20:13 <CoderForLife> just love playing around in the breaker box

20:15 <efc> Pretty soon, video cards will have an extra cable to connect directly to the bus bars.

20:16 <PovAddict> dual power supply

20:17 <efc> This old house I looked at still had the original 60 amp service with a bunch of patch-ons.

20:17 <efc> Decided to pass.

20:17 <efc> also pretty severe settling, asbestos, lead paint, etc

20:22 <CoderForLife> you could have gotten some congressional directed spending to bail you out of of that environmental disaster

20:23 <efc> I'd love to have a Superfund site named after me.

20:24 <CoderForLife> It would be an interesting name

20:26 <CoderForLife> well - time for a snack and then probably bed - been an exciting day

20:26 <efc> &nn

20:26 <Romulus> Live long and crunch!

20:26 <CoderForLife> gn all

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22:42 <dorkface> !authorization failure

22:42 <dorkface> Well, I guess not all bots work the same :P

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