IRC logs of #boinc for Sunday, 2012-11-18

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14:06 <mtrg> is there any open-standard grid platform?\

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16:26 <efc> Moo.

16:27 <mtrg> moo

16:34 <efc> 11/18/2012 5:33:47 PM||CPU benchmarks timed out, using default values

16:43 <Tank_Master> oppsie

16:45 <efc> Clearly, more Time is needed.

16:47 <mtrg> why do you guys use BOINC instead of the any other grid arch.?

16:48 <Tank_Master> theres not any other grid arictecure that allows running multible typs of projects concurrently as BOINC does

16:49 <mtrg> i assume you looked at many other grid arch. right?

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16:53 <mtrg> Tank_Master: is your use case require you to run multiple projects at the same time?

16:54 <Tank_Master> require? sometimes, not always

16:54 <mtrg> i'm looking for a grid arch with a server that allows submitting jobs for general use by different grid users

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16:54 <Tank_Master> most projects dont have a application that will run on CPU, AMD GPU, and Nvida GPU

16:55 <Tank_Master> so i have to run different projects on each

16:56 <Tank_Master> you mean like handing out work to both BOINC users and some other grid at the same time?

16:57 <mtrg> no, i'm not BOIN specific. i'm new to grid computing. my goal is something with accounting/authorziation/authentication for many grid users, so for example, i book the grid from 1AM to 1PM and use it for my own application

16:58 <Tank_Master> boinc allows the user to in general tell the client t only run work from a certain point of time to another, but theres no server side setting that I am aware of for things like that

16:59 <Tank_Master> in general, if the server is not responsive because its off, the client will just back off and try again later

16:59 <Tank_Master> then the client will run out of work, and sit idle as its trying to reconnect

17:01 <PovAddict> [18:53] <mtrg> Tank_Master: is your use case require you to run multiple projects at the same time?

17:01 <PovAddict> mtrg: we donate our CPU time to different public projects, I'm not sure if "use case" is even well-defined here

17:01 <mtrg> yea

17:02 <mtrg> a user in my case is a programmer who is  writing applications for the grid. the computers who are the resources are made available by donators

17:02 <PovAddict> well Tank_Master is 'just' a donator then :)

17:03 <mtrg> what i want to make is a platform that allows any user to exec his apps on the grid, but he needs to login with his account, get assigned some resources based on load, and exec his job

17:03 <Tank_Master> yeah, im just a freeloader :P

17:03 <PovAddict> Tank_Master: opposite; a freeloader would be someone who uses CPU time of others without contributing any of his own :P

17:03 <Tank_Master> i think BURP does something similer, no?

17:03 <Tank_Master> they do 3d video rendering

17:04 <PovAddict> yeah, but BURP is fixed to a single application

17:04 <Tank_Master> user can submit the raw info to be rendered

17:04 <Tank_Master> right

17:04 <Tank_Master> but its a simpilfied version of the consept mtrg is after

17:04 <mtrg> as far as i understand, BOINC is for projects that are pretty focused (e.g. seti)

17:05 <PovAddict> sort of

17:05 <mtrg> what i need is a platform that allows any user (programmer) to run his grid-ready apps on the grid

17:05 <PovAddict> World Community Grid has like 20 different subprojects

17:05 <PovAddict> but they do a lot of non-automated work on each application to get it to work in BOINC

17:05 <Tank_Master> in gernal just because thats how the admin sets it up, fior they tend to not run things that arent interested in

17:06 <Tank_Master> primgrid has a dozzen or so apps as well

17:06 <PovAddict> I don't think it's easy (or a good idea) to make an arbitrary-app BOINC-based project

17:07 <mtrg> my exact scenario is as follows: many hundres of computers at work are setting idle. by installing a grid platform on them, we can use them for cruhcning really large data in no time without purchasing new hardware. but we have no single use case, our problems vary quite a lot. for example: today i may submit something nasty to the grid and let it run from 1PM to 5PM. then another guy may run his own nasty thing from 6PM to 11PM...etc. i need an interface that

17:08 <PovAddict> and there's an unbounded amount of different applications to run?

17:08 <Tank_Master> youll have securitiy issues to contend with, not to mention theres one project i know of that got shut down by the DOD/DOJ because they ran something that was sensitive to the military

17:08 <mtrg> PovAddict: right

17:08 <PovAddict> Tank_Master: well if it's going to be in-house (only work computers attached to the project) that doesn't matter so much

17:08 <PovAddict> but yeah

17:09 <PovAddict> you should expect to spend some time per application adapting it to BOINC :P

17:09 <Tank_Master> so you have that to deal with (say for instance, foreign governmnet agencies running things your government doesnt want them to, or access to the kind of computational power you may provide)

17:09 <mtrg> Tank_Master: this is in-house stuff to utilized our own hardware

17:09 <Tank_Master> ok

17:09 <Tank_Master> so its not a general public project?

17:10 <mtrg> nope

17:10 <mtrg> donators might be in general public later on. but users (grid programmers) are in house

17:10 <Tank_Master> ah ok

17:10 <mtrg> the main use of it is utilizing the hundres of idle pcs we have right now

17:11 <mtrg> pardon my typos

17:11 * Tank_Master is fluent in typoneese

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17:13 <mtrg> bitcoin is impressive. they did 168.26 PFLOPS in july 2012 (wiki)

17:14 <PovAddict> yeah, what a waste

17:14 <mtrg> they're probably doing more than that of the fastest supercomputer today

17:14 <Tank_Master> to bad they dont run anything useful

17:14 <mtrg> good for those in cold eivnronments (generating heat)

17:14 <mtrg> better than spending money on a classical heater

17:15 <PovAddict> heat pumps are more efficient, and other projects are more useful :P

17:15 <mtrg> do you mean less watt/sec per heat/sec?

17:15 <PovAddict> yes, because heat pumps don't produce heat, they take existing heat from outside and move it inside

17:16 <mtrg> i don't get it. heat pumps don't produce heat?

17:16 <PovAddict> they don't turn electricity into heat, like a resistance does

17:16 <PovAddict> they move heat around

17:17 <PovAddict> heat pump = air conditioner in reverse :P

17:17 <mtrg> oh, i was referring to electrical heaters

17:17 <Tank_Master> they just move fluids through a radator that disperes heat or apsorbs heat ( dependiong on the tempiture difference between the internal liquid and external medium)

17:17 <PovAddict> yes, and I was saying heat pumps are a more efficient way to use electricity to heat your house, than normal electrical heaters :P

17:18 <mtrg> interesting

17:18 <mtrg> bitcoin should do something useful i guess

17:19 <PovAddict> in theory, the waste would eventually stabilize

17:20 <PovAddict> the more people "mining" bitcoins, the longer it takes for everyone

17:20 <PovAddict> so in theory, eventually it will reach a point where people spend more in electricity than what they gain in bitcoins

17:20 <PovAddict> so it's not profitable, and they stop

17:20 <PovAddict> stopping makes the difficulty go down, so it becomes profitable again

17:21 <PovAddict> and it'd get in an equilibrium there

17:21 <PovAddict> however, in practice, there's lots of people using electricity they don't pay for (teenagers on parents' houses, people mining bitcoins on work computers, etc)

17:22 <PovAddict> or idiots who don't do the math that they're losing more on their electricity bill than what they get in their virtual-money-possibly-exchangeable-for-real-money

17:24 <mtrg> yeah

17:25 <PovAddict> not to mention the risk

17:26 <PovAddict> lose a file, lose your money

17:26 <PovAddict> put your money in a virtual bitcoin wallet online, site disappears or gets hacked, *poof*

17:26 <PovAddict> or as it happened... massive market crash :P

17:29 <PovAddict> http://bitcoincharts.com/charts/chart.png?width=940&m=mtgoxUSD&t=C&m1=10&m2=25

17:29 <Romulus> <http://tinyurl.com/cdw96kh> (at bitcoincharts.com)

17:29 <mtrg> that's per USD?

17:30 <mtrg> i.e. 1 bitcoin ~ 10USD?

17:30 <PovAddict> that's the BTC-USD exchange rate on the biggest exchange service

17:30 <PovAddict> and yes

17:31 <mtrg> its interesting how it started as 0USD

17:31 <mtrg> that exponential (unrealistic) growth is funny

17:32 <PovAddict> yeah that went crazy

17:32 <PovAddict> then it crashed in hours

17:32 <mtrg> crashed in hours? you mean the attack?

17:34 <PovAddict> no, I mean like 'economic market crash' (dropping way too fast)

17:34 <Tank_Master> similer thing happened in Second Life's economy, the exchangerate for the linden doller to USD severly crashed a few years ago (though there was checks in place to stop all echanges if it inflated ordeflated excesivly in a short period of time)

17:35 <PovAddict> mtrg: there was an attack indeed, but that didn't make it drop so much *directly*

17:35 <Tank_Master> few months later, there was that historical blip in the US exchange market where it suddently droped by 1/4th and recovered within minuets

17:35 <PovAddict> mtrg: it also made people legitimately sell before it dropped more, which naturally made it drop more

17:35 <mtrg> ah

17:36 <PovAddict> it's like

17:36 <mtrg> "omg time to sell"

17:36 <PovAddict> if a bank screws up that doesn't make the economy crash by itself

17:37 <PovAddict> what does is the bank runs, when people say "omg the bank screwed up, I'll get every cent of mine out of it"

17:37 <PovAddict> :)

17:37 <mtrg> i wonder how many USD should i spend on electricity to get a single bitcoin

17:38 <PovAddict> there's calculators where you feed your mining software's speed and they say how long on average you should expect to generate a block

17:38 <mtrg> i see

17:39 <mtrg> isn't this becoming slower by time?

17:39 <PovAddict> it is; those calculators keep up-to-date with the "difficulty" factor :)

17:40 <mtrg> wound be interesting if a set of computers are made running while being powered by some sort of wind torbine

17:40 <mtrg> hopefully the maintenence cost would not be higher than the outcome

17:40 <PovAddict> yeah plus how long it'll take for you to recover your initial costs

17:41 <mtrg> yeah. it's easier to go to college, get a degree, and work

17:42 <PovAddict> there's people who bought GPUs specifically for bitcoin mining

17:42 <PovAddict> and took months to recover the costs

17:43 <mtrg> so they did recover eventually.. i thought that's semi-impossible given the cost of electricity

17:43 <PovAddict> ah no, not counting electricity, I just mean paying the GPU back

17:43 <mtrg> heh

17:43 <PovAddict> but maybe they were on a university dorm or something like that and didn't pay for electricity; that's where the whole scheme of 'difficulty will get balanced' breaks down

17:44 <mtrg> yeah

17:44 <mtrg> that's very tempting. although it's a sort of stealing imo.

17:44 <PovAddict> pretty much

17:45 <mtrg> e.g. a custom bitcoing-compatible app that submits bitcoint problems to the grid at night

17:46 <mtrg> PovAddict: did you look at globus tookit?

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19:11 <Jinx> Tank_Master: my client has tried 3 times now to run DistrRTgen but sadly the process keeps crashing

19:12 <Jinx> while other projects work fine, i still wonder: is it possible it's my older version of BOINC, or is it strictly a project issue?

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19:15 <Jinx> it seems that project doesn't have its own support page

19:15 <Jinx> i'll try updating the boinc client--but i'm guessing that won't do it

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